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Michael Brown Shooting

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Ammonitida said:
Thing is, forensics about bullet wounds can be very shaking. I saw this with the Jodi Arias case (I disagreed with the pathologist on a number of things).

I'd like a video of the shooting, but that's probably not going to happen. Wilson's story needs to have gaping holes in it. Something that just smells like BS. Like Zimmerman's claim that Treyvon Martin told him, "you're going to die tonight", which always sounded like a lie to me.
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Well how about this: Kill shot was through the top of the head of a 6'4" man and Wilson's police report says when Brown fell he stopped shooting?

How about this: three witnesses independently said Brown was surrendering and the shot to the palm and top of the head corroborate the witness accounts?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Well how about this: Kill shot was through the top of the head of a 6'4" man and Wilson's police report says when Brown fell he stopped shooting?

How about this: three witnesses independently said Brown was surrendering and the shot to the palm and top of the head corroborate the witness accounts?
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:nope:
 
jhunter1163 said:
In such a charged atmosphere, I don't think a finding of "justified" is likely. Wilson will almost certainly have to stand trial for something. He'll likely be acquitted, but optics are important.
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Manslaughter, negligent use of excessive force.

jhunter1163 said:
I thought the same thing during the OJ trial; even though the prosecution utterly botched its case, there really wasn't any doubt that he had done it. The jury, though, probably acquitted him for its own safety.
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Peer pressure and one or more jurors who were easily convinced the police set OJ up.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Well how about this: Kill shot was through the top of the head of a 6'4" man and Wilson's police report says when Brown fell he stopped shooting?

How about this: three witnesses independently said Brown was surrendering and the shot to the palm and top of the head corroborate the witness accounts?
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If I hold my hands up to surrender, and I get shot in the palm, I''ll have a through shot.

A circular hole in my palm.

I will not have what is drawn on the autopsy sheet.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Well how about this: Kill shot was through the top of the head of a 6'4" man and Wilson's police report says when Brown fell he stopped shooting?

How about this: three witnesses independently said Brown was surrendering and the shot to the palm and top of the head corroborate the witness accounts?
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Where are you getting this shot to the top of the head?


...and you took me to task for suggesting a shove at the throat area was a choking move, and accused me of confirmation bias..:rolleyes:
 
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Ziggurat said:
An interesting column from Mark Steyn about the whole mess:
http://www.steynonline.com/6524/cigars-but-not-close
It's mostly not about the shooting itself (there's not a lot to say when so many critical facts remain unknown) but about general policing atmosphere and tactics. A small excerpt:

The most basic problem is that we will never know for certain what happened. Why? Because the Ferguson cruiser did not have a camera recording the incident. That's simply not credible. "Law" "enforcement" in Ferguson apparently has at its disposal tear gas, riot gear, armored vehicles and machine guns ...but not a dashcam. That's ridiculous. I remember a few years ago when my one-man police department in New Hampshire purchased a camera for its cruiser. It's about as cheap and basic a police expense as there is.​

I'm a big fan of not just dashboard cams, but also body-worn police cameras.
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I like Mark Steyn but I have to say... what would a dash cam really show us about the relevant portion of the encounter?

We'd hear screaming and struggling probably, and then gunshots... while we had a nice view of some apartments and grass in the other direction.

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding which way the front of the car was pointed as compared to where Mr. Brown was shot. What I've heard is that the shooting took place off to the side of the vehicle, not out front of it.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Well how about this: Kill shot was through the top of the head of a 6'4" man and Wilson's police report says when Brown fell he stopped shooting?

How about this: three witnesses independently said Brown was surrendering and the shot to the palm and top of the head corroborate the witness accounts?
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Unless the officer was about as tall as Brown, such a shot from distance would have been next to impossible with Brown standing or on his knees, even with head bent down. The lack of powder burns on his flesh make those shots specifically to be very unlikely done from close range. It was the clothing that the family's autopsy didn't have access to. It's also extremely unlikely that the police autopsy did or could remove such burns from the top of his head. At least part of the witness recollections have to be wrong in order to be consistent with the autopsy we have linked to. EDIT: For example, he could have had his arms up after getting shot, head down, on knees and bent forward.

That of course doesn't mean the ways in which they are wrong are purposeful or that even them being wrong means the shooting was justified.


The Central Scrutinizer said:
:nope:
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I've (uncharacteristically) agreed with your basic points through much of this thread, but I can't help but disagree with many of your specific methods of expression. You could have elaborated on why you disagreed with the quoted post. I get that it doesn't always help and it opens one up to counter-points, but that's how honest discourse advances.
 
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Skeptical Greg said:
Where are you getting this shot to the top of the head?


...and you took me to task for suggesting a shove at the throat area was a choking move, and accused me of confirmation bias..:rolleyes:
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Baden says there was a shot that entered the top of the head, traveling at an angle downwards, as if the head was bent over.

There are, of course, numerous ways to have that happen, some of which favor one version of events, soem of which favor other versions of events.

Praying for mercy.

Charging like a bull.

Surrendering with head bowed.

Falling forward as the last shots hit him.

Etc.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Peer pressure and one or more jurors who were easily convinced the police set OJ up.
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The defense could have based their case on demonic possession, and still achieved an acquittal. Given the atmosphere at the time...that jury wasn't going to convict. Period.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Where are you getting this shot to the top of the head?


...and you took me to task for suggesting a shove at the throat area was a choking move, and accused me of confirmation bias..:rolleyes:
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The autopsy information we have shows the fatal and last shot was through the top of the head, in both the picture and description.


Skeptic Tank said:
I like Mark Steyn but I have to say... what would a dash cam really show us about the relevant portion of the encounter?

We'd hear screaming and struggling probably, and then gunshots... while we had a nice view of some apartments and grass in the other direction.

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding which way the front of the car was pointed as compared to where Mr. Brown was shot. What I've heard is that the shooting took place off to the side of the vehicle, not out front of it.
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It would reveal what words were said, by who, and when. It would tell us the number of shots, how close together, and in what order things happened. It would confirm or deny details as given by witnesses, giving them more or less weight. It would tell us when the officer knew what, about how close he got his vehicle when he turned it around, and probably would help indicate who started attacking who and where they ended up.
 
tyr_13 said:
The autopsy information we have shows the fatal and last shot was through the top of the head, in both the picture and description.





It would reveal what words were said, by who, and when. It would tell us the number of shots, how close together, and in what order things happened. It would confirm or deny details as given by witnesses, giving them more or less weight. It would tell us when the officer knew what, about how close he got his vehicle when he turned it around, and probably would help indicate who started attacking who and where they ended up.
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Well, Baden said it was the last shot.

It's beyond me how he can tell.

I presume, since he doesn't think any of the arm shots were fatal,or had any fatal fragments or ricochets, he is just going with the two head shots being last, and logically if you are falling forward, they would be in order.

If you think the head was already bowed or down, then I don't know how you define the order.

So, I think Baden thinks the head was falling forward as the last 2 shots were fired.
 
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LTC8K6 said:
Well, Baden said it was the last shot.

It's beyond me how he can tell.

I presume, since he doesn't think any of the arm shots were fatal,or had any fatal fragments or ricochets, he is just going with the two head shots being last, and logically if you are falling forward, they would be in order.

If you think the head was already bowed or down, then I don't know how you define the order.

So, I think Baden thinks the head was falling forward as the last 2 shots were fired.
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Science!!
 
LTC8K6 said:
Autopsies of course.

We have one more leak to get.
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What are you talking about? The county hasn't released their autopsy, the federal autopsy hadn't been done as of this morning's press conference and the preliminary autopsy that was released wasn't "leaked" and doesn't favor Wilson.
 
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