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Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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As I said before, I think you are being picky. Could it have been worded more precisely??? Sure...but it doesn't mean anything. The point Grinder is that Rudy didn't know Raffaele from Adam. What's more, we don't know how the translation effects this statement.

Rudi knew Raf from seeing him with Amanda in the hood and at Le Chic. I made that up but there is no way that Raf could be certain Rudi didn't know him. There certainly is no way that you can be certain. The translation aspect has been dealt with and unless you wish to claim that he didn't say with Amanda then you miss the point.


I don't think so. Raffaele knows that Rudy knew Amanda in passing. He is only speaking for himself that he and Rudy weren't acquainted. He also made this statement a long time ago. I don't think Raffaele was parsing his language that precisely. Maybe he should have been...but for me Grinder, this is a big "huh"?? and "so what"?

I said it was odd and it is. It is odd that PIP can't just say "yes it was an odd statement".

Rudi's letter had just been read in court and Raf didn't stand up and say that he was innocent wasn't there and had nothing to do with Meredith's murder but rather made a convoluted statement about not being seen with Amanda.

I didn't say it meant he did it or that it was incriminating but that it was odd and it tis, tis, tis tis. (yes, minister reference).
 
Rudi knew Raf from seeing him with Amanda in the hood and at Le Chic. I made that up but there is no way that Raf could be certain Rudi didn't know him. There certainly is no way that you can be certain. The translation aspect has been dealt with and unless you wish to claim that he didn't say with Amanda then you miss the point.
As I said, you are taking this too literally. Raffaele doesn't recognize Rudy at all. Granted that doesn't mean that Rudy hadn't seen Raffaele on the street, so clearly this isn't as accurate as it could be. I'm reminded that Rudy saw Amanda a single time at Le Chic and Rudy had met Amanda 12 days before the murder and Raffaele met Amanda only 8 days before the murder.

I said it was odd and it is. It is odd that PIP can't just say "yes it was an odd statement".

Rudi's letter had just been read in court and Raf didn't stand up and say that he was innocent wasn't there and had nothing to do with Meredith's murder but rather made a convoluted statement about not being seen with Amanda.

I didn't say it meant he did it or that it was incriminating but that it was odd and it tis, tis, tis tis. (yes, minister reference).

I don't see it really as odd. Perhaps not precise, but not odd.
 
Ok... that is junk science as described in those links.

This part is particularly disingenuous:

​

The English language is not like mathematics, where, for instance 1 + 1 always equals 2. There are idiomatic ways of putting things which not everyone shares... there are people with English as a second language who awkwardly transpose idioms from one language to the next.... etc. etc.

The best debunking of this version of statement analysis which assumes that "English usage never lies", is as portrayed in the film Presumed Innocent by Paul Warfield (Judge Larren Lyttle)....

Rusty Sabich was accused of murder by the new D.A. Sabich's answer was, "Yea, you're right," said in a very sarcastic tone. The D.A. took it as a confession.

Judge Larren Lyttle intervened, recounting his old neighbourhood where he grew up, where in their vernacular they would often say the opposite of what they meant sarcastically.

Great movie Bill. One of my favorites. Classic. Harrison Ford, Brian Dennehy, John Spencer, Raul Julia, Bonnie Bedelia.

If I remember right Judge Lyttle (Paul Warfield) said in his neighborhood they would have replied "Your mama" but in Rusty's neighborhood they would say "yea, you're right"
 
Great movie Bill. One of my favorites. Classic. Harrison Ford, Brian Dennehy, John Spencer, Raul Julia, Bonnie Bedelia.

If I remember right Judge Lyttle (Paul Warfield) said in his neighborhood they would have replied "Your mama" but in Rusty's neighborhood they would say "yea, you're right"

Can you imagine trying to get a list of standard signs of lying in the English language, through Statement Analysis, when one applies the varied rules of Ebonics, Spanglish, Tennessee hill country vernacular.....

But you are right about Judge Lyttle. It is one reason why judges need to represent the varied communities they preside over, so that junk-scientists who deitize things like Statement Analysis can't get away with things.

Ever heard of the Anus Wink Test? It was a factor in the 1982 Scott and Brenda Kniffen case where they were sentenced to 240 years in jail for molesting their boys, and served 14 years until released. The Wink Test because a fad in Kern County, and was a factor in a spike in wrongful convictions there.
 
Can you imagine trying to get a list of standard signs of lying in the English language, through Statement Analysis, when one applies the varied rules of Ebonics, Spanglish, Tennessee hill country vernacular.....

But you are right about Judge Lyttle. It is one reason why judges need to represent the varied communities they preside over, so that junk-scientists who deitize things like Statement Analysis can't get away with things.

Ever heard of the Anus Wink Test? It was a factor in the 1982 Scott and Brenda Kniffen case where they were sentenced to 240 years in jail for molesting their boys, and served 14 years until released. The Wink Test because a fad in Kern County, and was a factor in a spike in wrongful convictions there.

NO...And I don't want to either....lol
 
Rudi knew Raf from seeing him with Amanda in the hood and at Le Chic. I made that up but there is no way that Raf could be certain Rudi didn't know him. There certainly is no way that you can be certain. The translation aspect has been dealt with and unless you wish to claim that he didn't say with Amanda then you miss the point.




I said it was odd and it is. It is odd that PIP can't just say "yes it was an odd statement".

Rudi's letter had just been read in court and Raf didn't stand up and say that he was innocent wasn't there and had nothing to do with Meredith's murder but rather made a convoluted statement about not being seen with Amanda.

I didn't say it meant he did it or that it was incriminating but that it was odd and it tis, tis, tis tis. (yes, minister reference).

So you do you think somebody (Maresca?) missed a chance to batten onto this and launch some questions asking why he didn't say what you think he should have said? Of course, that was not possible since he was not on the stand, just making a statement to the court, but I could see that happening if he has been. So, I am kind of in agreement but I still think it's a small point. Just an infelicitous (and inadvertently prescient) use of language.
 
inconsistent on details

I have been rereading information on the Duke lacrosse case (2006) recently. To the best of my knowledge, the three residents of the house at 610 North Buchanan (Dan Flannery, Matt Zash, and David Evans) in Durham, NC where the alleged rape took place, were also the co-captains of the 2006 Duke men's lacrosse team. In the book "Until Proven Innocent" Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson wrote about the accounts given by the three players in the days after the alleged assault (p. 44): "The Evans, Flannery, and Zash accounts were confused as to the chaotic sequence of events and inconsistent on details. But on the main issues they meshed well with one another..." I made a similar observation with respect to the Lindy Chamberlain case about a month or two ago.
 
Planigale,

These are two exerpts from his interview with Thoughtful:

3) Is the presence of DNA at 36B and 36I an indication that the knife was not washed? He said no, the knife could have been washed and even quite well washed; DNA can be hard to get rid of.

9) This is actually my favorite one: it's about the EDF's, or "electronic data files", also known as "raw data files" -- those records of raw data produced by the machine that Halkides and others have made a great fuss over, saying that Stefanoni kept them secret and refused to hand them over to Conti and Vecchiotti, giving them only electropherograms labeled with peak heights and areas (with which they declared themselves satisfied, let it be mentioned in passing). I asked him (another of MisterPink's questions) whether they could contain information that could change his mind regarding the attribution of Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp, Meredith's on the knife, or any other. His answer: "What are these electronic data files? What is raw data? I thought that the raw data was just the electropherograms labeled with those numbers."

With respect to point 3, Professor Budowle's letter to the court goes through this problem, and Professor Gill explains how this might be tested experimentally (although the alleged groove adds complexity). I think that both of these responses were more on the mark. With respect to point 9, this goes back to a question at the VfW interview, in which he was asked whether or not he had examined the raw data. Raw data can be a little tricky to define (and I may not have always been clear in my usage), but what I mean is the fluorescence intensity vs. time data prior to the color separation used to make the 4-channel electropherograms. It seems to me that Dr. Balding did not fully appreciate the implications of the question posed to him at VfW. However (for the lurkers), every DNA consultant I have ever asked or whose work I have read has been crystal clear about the need for the release of the raw data. Having the raw data allows the user to look for artifacts, such as pull-up and to zoom in on small peaks (I know that Bill_Williams's eyes are glazing over at this point).

With respect to another question at VfW (the one about Y-chromosomal data), it seemed to me that Dr. Balding answered a different question from the one that he was asked. He answered that it would not change his interpretation of the autosomal (standard) DNA profile, but the question was only about the interpretation of the YSTR electropherogram. I don't have a link handy for his interview on the BBC3 documentary, but my recollection is that he acknowledged the existence of DNA from the environment that might be found on items of evidence, but he implied that one could tell it apart from DNA deposited as part of a crime. I would have to review the documentary to be sure.

Dealing with mathematicians is like your three wishes in a fairy story. You get three questions and they answer them literally. So you ask could LCN DNA be present after a knife was washed. Problem 1) this is really chemistry so Balding ceases to be an expert opinion. 2) Literally he is right. Within the limits of the question DNA could be left on a knife after washing (unless bleach was used).

The question one really wants to ask is in the case of a knife allegedly used in a bloody murder which does not match most of the wounds or the imprint left behind, that was not collected or stored in recommended ways for LCN samples, with no detectable blood, even in crevices which would be hard to clean. What is the likelihood that a LCN DNA profile from a swab from the blade with no detectable DNA, tested in a laboratory which is not set up to do LCN DNA, with no information about negative controls, can be safely attributed with reasonable certainty as deriving from the use of the knife in the murder.

I am a bit surprised that Balding seems unaware of the issues of the 'in machine' data processing and the need to ensure the data output is reliable. Lots of people believe an instrument output; they are happy with it being a black box. Modern instruments do a lot of processing, an example is the 'bug' that reports on the RTqPCR a value of 50 for no detectable DNA. Literally this implies that DNA was detected after 50 cycles. In fact no DNA is detected. The software needs a numerical value so defaults to 50. It is entirely reasonable to expect to have the 'raw' data prior to in machine processing because the settings may filter out small but significant signals.
 
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Rudi knew Raf from seeing him with Amanda in the hood and at Le Chic. I made that up but there is no way that Raf could be certain Rudi didn't know him. There certainly is no way that you can be certain. The translation aspect has been dealt with and unless you wish to claim that he didn't say with Amanda then you miss the point.




I said it was odd and it is. It is odd that PIP can't just say "yes it was an odd statement".

Rudi's letter had just been read in court and Raf didn't stand up and say that he was innocent wasn't there and had nothing to do with Meredith's murder but rather made a convoluted statement about not being seen with Amanda.

I didn't say it meant he did it or that it was incriminating but that it was odd and it tis, tis, tis tis. (yes, minister reference).

I don't see in the transcript what the article claims he said.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/...Guede-Zaccaro-Llic-Chiacchiera-Napolleani.pdf

Signor Presidente, Signori della Corte, scusatemi io volevo soltanto farvi cercare di rendere conto di quella che e
la situazione, io conosco un po' gli atti e so quali
sono le dichiarazioni fatte. Allora, prima di tutto il Guede, lui non mi ha mai visto in vita sua, nemmeno di striscio
e nemmeno io lo conosco percio lui non so come si e, in qualche maniera si e voluta questa cosa che addirittura adesso
mi indica insieme ad Amanda Knox. Volevo ricordare, per che se ne e dimenticato in genere o comunque sia chi non
ci ha fatto caso, che il Guede nelle sue dichiarazioni a Beneditti, durante una chat, mentre lui non sapeva ancora
di essere indagato, lui si riferisce a un'ombra che non sa indentificare e dice che Amanda Knox non c'entra
assolutamente niente, dopo di che davanti agli inquirenti lui parla sempre di un'ombra che potrei essere io
e addirittura sente la voce, dice che sente la voce di Amanda ma non la vede e non l'ha vista. Adesso io...alla
fine queste ombre, queste voci la Procura le ha materializzate con me e Amanda semlicemente perche noi siamo
stati arrestati prima di lui, pero la realta e che io e Amanda siamo in questa situazione da quasi quattro anni a combattere con
le ombre e con delle supposizioni che non stanno a niente. E stiamo, hanno distrutto distrutto la mia vita e anche la sua, perche
siamo nella stessa posizione in questa tragedia, in una maniera per me subdola, assurda. Io da che cosa mi dovrei difendere,
se non risponde questo ragazzo? La ringrazio

Google

Mr President, Members of the Court, sorry I just wanted to let you try to give an account of what and
the situation, I know a little 'acts and know what
are the statements made. So, first of all Guede, he has ever seen in his life, not even glancing
and even I know him therefore he did not know how and in some way and we wanted this thing that even now
shows me along with Amanda Knox. I wanted to remind you, that if he and forgotten in whatever genre or those who do not
has made the case that the Guede in his statements to Beneditti, during a chat, while he did not yet know
to be investigated, he refers to a shadow that does not know indentificare and says that Amanda Knox has nothing to do
absolutely nothing, after that before investigators he always talks about a shadow that could be me
and even hear the voice, says that he hears the voice of Amanda, but does not see it and did not see it. Now to me ...
Eventually these shadows, these items the prosecutor has materialized with me and Amanda semlicemente because we are
were arrested before him, but the reality is that Amanda and I are in this situation for almost four years to fight with
shadows and assumptions that are not any good. And we have destroyed destroyed my life and even his, because
we are in the same position in this tragedy, in a subtle way for me, absurd. From what I am I supposed to defend,
if this guy does not respond? thank you
 
I have a kind of pro guilt question -
Are there any pro guilt writers who have put the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito in context with other cases and compared them to try to make a compelling argument for guilt?
 
Follain's book; short article about Peter Gill

Is it a book you will want to throw against the wall?
Desert Fox,

I'd rather throw Follain against the wall. It has many distortions and falsehoods, but the book does give some insight into Mignini's and Comodi's thinking. Consider the incident that Bill Williams relayed: PM Mignini prevented A and R from talking with lawyers until minutes before a hearing that would put them into custody for nearly a year in precautionary detention, and Follain spun it in Mignini's favor.
EDT
Bruce Fisher has written an article summarizing a few of Dr. Peter Gill's points about the flawed DNA evidence.
 
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I have a kind of pro guilt question -
Are there any pro guilt writers who have put the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito in context with other cases and compared them to try to make a compelling argument for guilt?

Sorry DF, No such thing.
 
For years, I have with a reluctant heart withheld from publication ...

I have a kind of pro guilt question -
Are there any pro guilt writers who have put the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito in context with other cases and compared them to try to make a compelling argument for guilt?


I have looked into the parallels between this case and that of Anna Larina & Bukharin.
The similarities are startling - the main difference is that this is a much bigger deal.

Thus I have not posted on the issue so as not to attract the ire of the groupies by appearing to trivialize or play down the suffering of Britney by such a comparison.

Was I wrong ??
 
I have looked into the parallels between this case and that of Anna Larina & Bukharin.
The similarities are startling - the main difference is that this is a much bigger deal.

Thus I have not posted on the issue so as not to attract the ire of the groupies by appearing to trivialize or play down the suffering of Britney by such a comparison.

Was I wrong ??

I am intrigued. Can you develop your thoughts?
 
Dr Balding & the CSI effect

Dealing with mathematicians is like your three wishes in a fairy story. You get three questions and they answer them literally. So you ask could LCN DNA be present after a knife was washed. Problem 1) this is really chemistry so Balding ceases to be an expert opinion. 2) Literally he is right. Within the limits of the question DNA could be left on a knife after washing (unless bleach was used).

The question one really wants to ask is in the case of a knife allegedly used in a bloody murder which does not match most of the wounds or the imprint left behind, that was not collected or stored in recommended ways for LCN samples, with no detectable blood, even in crevices which would be hard to clean. What is the likelihood that a LCN DNA profile from a swab from the blade with no detectable DNA, tested in a laboratory which is not set up to do LCN DNA, with no information about negative controls, can be safely attributed with reasonable certainty as deriving from the use of the knife in the murder.

I am a bit surprised that Balding seems unaware of the issues of the 'in machine' data processing and the need to ensure the data output is reliable. Lots of people believe an instrument output; they are happy with it being a black box. Modern instruments do a lot of processing, an example is the 'bug' that reports on the RTqPCR a value of 50 for no detectable DNA. Literally this implies that DNA was detected after 50 cycles. In fact no DNA is detected. The software needs a numerical value so defaults to 50. It is entirely reasonable to expect to have the 'raw' data prior to in machine processing because the settings may filter out small but significant signals.

Balding: "Sollecito is fully represented in the stain at 15 loci (we still only use 10 in the UK, so 15 is a lot), the evidence against him is strong even allowing for the additional uncertainty due to non-replication."

CH: [Are there contributors to the Y-STR profile other than Raffaele Sollecito? If so, how does the presence of this DNA affect our interpretation of the bra clasp as evidence?]

BALDING: "I haven't looked closely at the Y evidence - there seems no need for it because the autosomal evidence is overwhelming for the presence of DNA from Sollecito. But from a look at Conti-Vecchiotti, it seems to back up the conclusion from the autosomal profiles: Sollecito's alleles are all represented and these generate the highest peaks, but there are some low peaks not attributable to him; so at least one of the additional contributors of low-level DNA to the sample was male."

Are there contributors to the Y-STR profile other than Raffaele Sollecito? If so, how does the presence of this DNA affect our interpretation of the bra clasp as evidence?

I haven't looked closely at the Y evidence - there seems no need for it because the autosomal evidence is overwhelming for the presence of DNA from Sollecito. But from a look at Conti-Vecchiotti, it seems to back up the conclusion from the autosomal profiles: Sollecito's alleles are all represented and these generate the highest peaks, but there are some low peaks not attributable to him; so at least one of the additional contributors of low-level DNA to the sample was male.

CH: The bra clasp was collected about 47 days after the murder, and it was found in a different location from where it was initially observed. In the interim many people entered the cottage and items from her room were removed. Are these concerns sufficient for the clasp to be excluded as
evidence?


BALDING: The only worry would be if somehow DNA from Sollecito was brought into the room and deposited on item 165B. I don't know enough about what happened to say if that was likely but I'd guess that people walking in and out of the room etc would be unlikely to do that.

CH: The clasp was collected with gloves that were not clean, not with disposable tweezers (videos here and here). The glove was handled by more than one person. Are these concerns sufficient for the clasp to be excluded as evidence? If not, should the clasp be given less weight as evidence because of them?

BALDING: Same comment - the only concern is if any of this could have transferred DNA from Sollecito onto item 165B.

CH: Would you care to comment on the storage of the clasp after the forensic police tested it?

I know nothing about it.
CH: Did you analyze the electronic data files? Did you examine the laboratory¹s own protocols and machine logs?

BALDING: I have only seen the epgs for the autosomal DNA profiles of 165B. There is an unclear version of them in the Conti-Vecchiotti report, but Prof Vecchiotti kindly provided my with a clean set.

CH: Did you examine the negative controls? BALDING: No.

I'm not an expert on the science issues, but I have to say I'm concerned by Balding's phrasing at several points in this interview.

He seems to have two areas of pre-concieved prejudice that I'm troubled by:

1. He thinks that Sollecito is a suspect - ok, fine. But he equates a finding of Raf's DNA by saying, "the evidence against him is strong". It doesn't sound like he's talking about the certainty of a match to Raf's DNA, but rather he is chaining the idea of a finding of Raf's DNA to "evidence against" Raf.

It's as though he is suffering form the "CSI" effect, that the presence of DNA is automatically incriminating, and since Raf is the suspect, it almost feels like a suspect centered approach to the findings. Raf's DNA is important, but not the presence of "at least" one other male, nor is he concerned of how many other males there could be.

He's also blind to the fact that there is no other physical evidence of anyone but Guede in the room. Fair enough to say his analysis is limited to the DNA on the clasp, but he seems to be drawing a connection to a finding of Raf's DNA, and actual guilt - i.e., how Raf's DNA got there. He says that's a question, but also discounts the possibility of contamination by saying 'people walking in and out of a room wouldn't be likely to cause contamination. He seems to be an advocate for guilt, rather than, or in addition to, being an objective source of info.

2. In furtherance to the above, Balding seems oddly unconcerned about other sources of contamination (not worried about reviewing negative controls, while dismissing the need for a second run).

He also complains about the problem of splitting a sample in two because it may jeopardize getting any result at all, and defends the reliability of using a single run. It's as though he's working to obtain a usable result, even of diminished reliability, rather than a reliable result. He has a preference for getting a result, over reliability. That seems to me a prosecution oriented POV.

His willingness to overlook issues like storage of the clasp strikes me as obtuse. He's not worried about the defense having an opportunity to validate or disqualify the result. It's like he wants the quick and dirty win, over the well proven point.

I don't think Balding is intentionally dishonest. But I do get the sense he is a subtly prejudiced witness in this matter.
 
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