Future of the Forum

[JoeMorgue]

I'll never understand people's need to enforce some standards onto a frickin' internet forum as if they are negotiating it's membership in the UN or something.

The hyperbolic language some people use as if this message board is a country or a law enforcement agency or something with real power over people's actual lives borders on silly sometimes. And fully invades and occupies silly other times.

This board is cannot punish you, banned members are not political dissidents you have to stage candle light vigils for, and being held to rules on a message board is not some massive human rights violation that requires sanctions.

 

[smartcooky]

The biggest difference there was that the forums were changing hands between similar non-profit groups with essentially the same mission. Here, the original transfer seemed to be going from a non-profit organization with a focus on skepticism, to ... what? For a while, it looked like it was going to either an individual with an unknown agenda, or to a for-profit business.

Regardless of whether the goals and philisophies of the two groups were the same, private information changed hands seamlessly.

 

[pakeha]

Nor is there, I believe, any liability risked by JREF for anything said by a poster on the forum, because...


[qimg]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/JREF/disclaimer.png[/qimg]

It'll be interesting to see how the subject plays out in our new home.
In any case, we have the great good luck to count on the current admin and modsquad and icerat to get settled in.

[ . . . ] Paul Bethke could sue tomorrow because Randi is allowing a conspiracy of forumites to refuse to go blind, thereby denying the work of Teh Lord. Worthless and frivolous and will be thrown out, sooner or later... but it would have to be acted on.

 

[abaddon]

I simply cannot believe you are asking for term limits for an administrative position on an internet discussion forum.

There is a naturally occurring term limit, and that is "as long as the volunteer is willing to continue putting up with the commitment involved".

Enforced term limits simply do not work. Imposing such would, in my view, spell the end of the forum.

 

[Francesca R]

Any legal issues about the JREF republishing the entirety of the content of the forum (that is, the posts) on a 'new' forum (or elsewhere, for that matter) are quite non-existent to trivial to deal with, as there is essentially no legal bar to doing so, and no legal risk to the JREF at all.

That would be good.

In this case, the new forum would be the publisher, and the JREF is publishing your messages in that new forum using their (JREF's) license. The new forum just holds a copy necessary for displaying the posts, but it's JREF who's republishing them.

I may well be wrong. I'm sure they'll sort it out though.

Likewise.

 

[This is The End]

Not really. Somebody (and not the only one) broke the eleventh commandment that "Thou shalt not volunteer".

Once that happened, the peanut gallery started inventing nefarious "agendas" out of whole cloth. Sufficient red herrings to feed a nation were added and the rest is history.

To be fair, it was not out of "whole cloth". (Whole cloth implies that it was created from absolutely nothing).

I submit the following (highlighting mine but please read the entire posts, not just my highlights, of course):

a bit more than that actually. My background is in psychology/sociology and IT and I worked in academia for about a decade developing and evaluating community interventions before moving in to a more IT support role as the internet became important. On the side I started one of Australia's first internet providers. I got out of that business a few years back and bought an old house in the swedish countryside I've been renovating for the last few years while working on a few ideas.

What's serendipitous is that the vision for my main startup (TribeTech) is to help build and support sustainable interest-based communities using both the internet and offline events - kind of like what happened with these forums and TAM.

In my experience many NFP and other volunteer organizations (like user groups) have a tendency to die when the main driving force behind them moves on or dies. To a certain extent that's what happened here over the last few years, with the JREF people with a passion for the forum (Jeff I believe) moving on to other things.

The idea is to put in place community-driven, systemised strategies to help fund and operate these organizations without depending on any particular person, so that they can continue to thrive without them. (as an aside, as a scientist at heart I'm also working with a local University to evaluate different strategies to see how they work).

This community I think fits perfectly in to this concept, so while I wasn't looking for more things to do it does seem a perfect opportunity.

The question arises as to the organisational form of any future body operating the forum. A new non-profit? Part of an existing non-profit or for-profit entity? Couple of dudes in their mother's basement? None of the above?

I agree, however I think there should be an acceptable advertising model that can generate income. What we are doing with other communities is finding community members who have particular products/services that are directly related to that community, and as part of a "pro" membership we co-market to the community.

It has to be done in a way that is acceptable and useful to the community in question. It's also more work, but generates more revenue than things like googleads.

As an example, if this was an independent community it may take a small commission on TAM ticket sales that occur via the site. I'm sure there are other skeptic events around the world that could do with co-marketing through this site.

So I admit it may not be much. But it isn't from absolutely nothing, as you using the term "from whole cloth" implies.

Remember, make up out of whole cloth means "zero" basis. Zero. A "complete" fiction. Complete. If you had just said "exaggerated" or "extrapolated" or something to that effect I would have not had a problem with it...

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/19/magazine/on-language-out-of-the-whole-cloth.html

 

[This is The End]

And that is without even getting into icerats history with supporting MLMs, Amway, and other pyramid schemes which several of us feel very strongly about.** Not to mention the fact that the United States Government feels that way as well:

**ETA: I would like to make it very clear that there is disagreement about what constitutes a pyramid scheme in many cases. And obviously about whether or not Amway and other certain MLMs are. That is why the below link has the word "some".

icerat feels strongly that certain organizations are not pyramid schemes just like how others of us feel strongly that they are. I was not trying to imply that icerat supports pyramid schemes that are clearly scams in the traditional sense.
Apologies to icerat that it appeared I was saying that. Like many things this is a broad scale and not a binary issue. icerat's views, as I understand them, are just on part of that scale distant from those of some of us, not nececarily on the complete bottom ​

According to the US FTC, some companies that use multi-level marketing exploit members of their networks and constitute illegal pyramid schemes.

 

[This is The End]

Once that happened, the peanut gallery started inventing nefarious "agendas" out of whole cloth.

And just so no one is confused, the below a prime example of the posts that I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly, but understandably so) abaddon is referring to with the above quote.

To me, it looks like this forum will be used as a guinea pig for someone trying to start a business running fora of this type. While I certainly have no issues with people starting and cultivating their business, I would prefer not to participate in such a venture. Mind you, as always I only speak for myself, but that is where my largest concern lies.

Which should, I would hope, put my explanations in the two posts preceding this one in context for those who have not been following along completely amongst these various threads.

ETA: Not to mention the fact that these "inventions" were, quite obviously, before icerat quite civilly addressed them in the threads when they were brought up. As it should be. (And as he does again in the below post. ) So in hindsight they seem a harsher than they did in the heat of the moment.

Cheers to icerat for maintaining composure and being civil and professional. (Even while having some of your beliefs and posting history challenged.) I believe you are setting a great example as a future operator of the forums in addressing any stated problems people might have with you directly and honorably.

 

[icerat]

Any "guinea pigging" will be in trying to work out how to make the site retain it's character and be self-funding and sustainable. Things like -

1. Can it, long-term, survive on donations?
2. Is an increase in or change in, type of advertising necessary?
3. Are there sponsorship/cross-promotion opportunities with relevant other entities that can generate income to cover the costs (eg TAM, Jeff's cruises, whatever)
4. What can be done to grow the user base? Do we even want to grow the user base?

Right now the site directly generates less than 1/5 of the income it costs to maintain it - and that's not including the time of JREF staff nor the volunteer time of the admins and mods.

The goal is to ensure it's a sustainable, self-organizing community. That may or may not end up being part of a profit-making enterprise but I think a structured approach to this is far better than a haphazard "hope it works out and Darat doesn't get hit by a bus".

A key aspect of developing sustainable communities is that how they operate is not imposed "top-down". You work with the community to ascertain it's goals and culture and establish methods to maintain and promote (and, if wanted, grow).

This has already begun in the various "name the forum" threads. People are discussing how to fund it. People are asking what the purpose of the forum is. How will it's name attract and/or repel potential new members, for example. People are discussing rules and rule changes.

These conversations will, and should, continue.

 

[zooterkin]

Right now the site directly generates less than 1/5 of the income it costs to maintain it - and that's not including the time of JREF staff nor the volunteer time of the admins and mods.

What are you counting as "direct"? The four years of JREF membership and TAM attendances I made would not have happened without the forum. I suspect I'm not the only one.

There are also the forum scholarships for TAM attendees, well into double figures each year. Since TAM is a fund-raiser for the JREF, at least some of that $10,000 this year was income (I believe there were around 20 scholarships this year, at around $500 each).

 

[lionking]

Any "guinea pigging" will be in trying to work out how to make the site retain it's character and be self-funding and sustainable. Things like -

1. Can it, long-term, survive on donations?
2. Is an increase in or change in, type of advertising necessary?
3. Are there sponsorship/cross-promotion opportunities with relevant other entities that can generate income to cover the costs (eg TAM, Jeff's cruises, whatever)
4. What can be done to grow the user base? Do we even want to grow the user base?

Right now the site directly generates less than 1/5 of the income it costs to maintain it - and that's not including the time of JREF staff nor the volunteer time of the admins and mods.

The goal is to ensure it's a sustainable, self-organizing community. That may or may not end up being part of a profit-making enterprise but I think a structured approach to this is far better than a haphazard "hope it works out and Darat doesn't get hit by a bus".

A key aspect of developing sustainable communities is that how they operate is not imposed "top-down". You work with the community to ascertain it's goals and culture and establish methods to maintain and promote (and, if wanted, grow).

This has already begun in the various "name the forum" threads. People are discussing how to fund it. People are asking what the purpose of the forum is. How will it's name attract and/or repel potential new members, for example. People are discussing rules and rule changes.

These conversations will, and should, continue.

Why are you, someone who is largely unknown to the forum, involved in these discussions? Apart from putting your hand up first that is.

You are making judgements and seem to be part of the decision making process. Who are you? What do you stand for? Why are you doing this? Why should member's faith be put in you?

You came into this whole thing with the offer to stabilise the forum and speed it up. This seems to have happened. Why not just dip your lid and let other, well known and respected people (like the mod team and Jeff) take over?

 

[ceptimus]

If I recall correctly* the whole idea of TAMs and TAM1 in particular was first suggested and organized on this forum by forum members.

*Warning: my recollection is fuzzy and likely inaccurate - maybe even plain wrong.

 

[lionking]

If I recall correctly* the whole idea of TAMs and TAM1 in particular was first suggested and organized on this forum by forum members.

*Warning: my recollection is fuzzy and likely inaccurate - maybe even plain wrong.

Others have pointed this out. The forum may not have been the only factor, but it seems clear that it was an important one.

But so what. The forum has been judged to be irrelevant. Past support means nothing.

 

[ceptimus]

Others have pointed this out. The forum may not have been the only factor, but it seems clear that it was an important one.

But so what. The forum has been judged to be irrelevant. Past support means nothing.

I only mentioned it in response to icerat's comment that the forum only currently raises 20% of its running costs. My guess (only a guess, of course) is that when you factor in indirect contributions resulting from forum activity, then the forum more than paid its way. Of course, once the forum is separated from the JREF then any funding going to the JREF as a result of forum activity will no longer be available to financially support the forum.

 

[steenkh]

Why are you, someone who is largely unknown to the forum, involved in these discussions? Apart from putting your hand up first that is.

Icerat has more than 4000 posts under his belt. How much is needed to be "known on the forum"? Just what sort of presence must one have to be qualified for taking part in the discussion?

You are making judgements and seem to be part of the decision making process. Who are you? What do you stand for? Why are you doing this? Why should member's faith be put in you?

In contrast to most other posters here, Icerat has actually had his hands on the technical side of the forum, and he seems to know his business. He is also working with Darat and Jeff who seems to have the confidence of the forumites, so just what is the problem here?

You came into this whole thing with the offer to stabilise the forum and speed it up. This seems to have happened. Why not just dip your lid and let other, well known and respected people (like the mod team and Jeff) take over?

Do you think that the economy of the forum is so unimportant that someone who knows about it should be kicked out for no other reason that you have never heard about him before? Icerat has published his name and CV which is more than any other in the decision process have been doing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If I recall correctly* the whole idea of TAMs and TAM1 in particular was first suggested and organized on this forum by forum members.

*Warning: my recollection is fuzzy and likely inaccurate - maybe even plain wrong.

Actually on that topic, serious inquiry.

Would one of the old timers clarify exactly to what degree the board and TAM are linked?

Like you I'm under the vague impression that TAM started out mostly as a board, not JREF, get-together but I've never got exact clarification on it.

 

[lionking]

Edit. Misread.

 

[lionking]

Do you think that the economy of the forum is so unimportant that someone who knows about it should be kicked out for no other reason that you have never heard about him before? Icerat has published his name and CV which is more than any other in the decision process have been doing.

Where is the evidence that icerat knows about the economy of the forum?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Why are you, someone who is largely unknown to the forum, involved in these discussions? Apart from putting your hand up first that is.

You are making judgements and seem to be part of the decision making process. Who are you? What do you stand for? Why are you doing this? Why should member's faith be put in you?

You came into this whole thing with the offer to stabilise the forum and speed it up. This seems to have happened. Why not just dip your lid and let other, well known and respected people (like the mod team and Jeff) take over?

In case you missed it over all your whining, icerat has posted his LinkedIn profile. He seems to have some experience with the topic of his last post, and the JREF seems to provide him with information to enable him to give sound advise. And he's sharing the basic line with us.

 

[steenkh]

Where is the evidence that icerat knows about the economy of the forum?

His statement about the economy of the forum. How many others know how much the operation of the forum costs, and how much is a direct income?

He could bluff of course, but nobody has called it.

As far as I know he is still charged by the JREF with taking over the forum, or at the very least, he is in the "inner circle", whether we like it or not. He is getting information that common forumites do not get.

ETA: Icerat is also the most open person who is in the "inner circle". The JREF is not giving out any information at all. I think that speaks well for him.