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Proof of Immortality II

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- Changing the wording probably won't help -- but, just in case...
- Would you say that a sperm cell from your dad and an ovum from Cleopatra, together, would represent a potential brain?
No, because unless godless dave's father is approximately 2,080 years old, their timelines do not cross. There is no way for the sperm and egg to meet, any more than you can roll a 27 on two 6-sided dice.

The base pairs point made by Mojo is also relevant.

Anyway, about that evidence for the existence of immortal souls. Do you have any, or know where we could find some?
 
Also, Jabba, are you prepared to accept my bet:
With both of us present, one of us flips a coin, and then after it has landed I tell you whether it is heads or tails. If I'm correct you pay me $1, if I'm wrong I pay you $100. The probability of the coin landing a particular way up is 50%, but you're getting odds of 100 to one.


If not, why not? You're being offered odds of 100 to one on what is in effect a two horse race between identical horses.
 
...because it won't change the fact that the human genome has a finite number of base pairs.
Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?
 
Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?


Explode it any way you like...still finite.
 
Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?


No.

But if it does, then all your posts about the possible results of combining sperm cells and ova are irrelevant.

And even if it does, it doesn't alter the fact that the human brain is of finite size, or that consciousness is a process determined by brain state and not a thing.

Now, how about that bet?
 
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Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?


You're sneaking that word "different" in there again, when you actually mean "separate". There's nothing magical about "experiencers" that would cause identical brains to result in "experiencers" that are different.
 
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Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?

Jabba- doesn't the fact that an "experiencer"/"self"/"soul" is not a separately existing thing, but is instead an ongoing process, an emergent property, "explode" your entire concept?
 
- Changing the wording probably won't help -- but, just in case...


Just in case doing exactly the same thing over and over suddenly yields a different result.



- Would you say that a sperm cell from your dad and an ovum from Cleopatra, together, would represent a potential brain?


Young Cleo has been dead for two thousand years.

And you're asking what is the potential for her to become preggers?

Srsly?
 
Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?


This is not a fact.


Where is your evidence for the existence of immortal souls?
 
Only this and nothing more.

I call Poe.



The Raven [5]​

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore—
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
"'Tis some visiter," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door—
Only this and nothing more."


Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;—vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow—sorrow for the lost Lenore—
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
Nameless here for evermore.

And the silken, sad, uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me—filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating
"'Tis some visiter entreating entrance at my chamber door—
Some late visiter entreating entrance at my chamber door;—
This it is and nothing more."

Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
"Sir," said I, "or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you"—here I opened wide the door;—
Darkness there and nothing more.

Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, "Lenore?"
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, "Lenore!"—
Merely this and nothing more.

Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
"Surely," said I, "surely that is something at my window lattice;
Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore—
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore;—
'Tis the wind and nothing more!"

Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately Raven of the saintly days of yore;
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door—
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door—
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.

Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
"Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou," I said, "art sure no craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient Raven wandering from the Nightly shore—
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!"
Quoth the Raven "Nevermore."

Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning—little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with seeing bird above his chamber door—
Bird or beast upon the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as "Nevermore."

But the Raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing farther then he uttered—not a feather then he fluttered—
Till I scarcely more than muttered "Other friends have flown before—
On the morrow he will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before."
Then the bird said "Nevermore."

Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
"Doubtless," said I, "what it utters is its only stock and store
Caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful Disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore—
Till the dirges of his Hope that melancholy burden bore
Of 'Never—nevermore'."

But the Raven still beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird, and bust and door;
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore—
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt, and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking "Nevermore."

This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom's core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion's velvet lining that the lamp-light gloated o'er,
But whose velvet-violet lining with the lamp-light gloating o'er,
She shall press, ah, nevermore!

Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.
"Wretch," I cried, "thy God hath lent thee—by these angels he hath sent thee
Respite—respite and nepenthe, from thy memories of Lenore;
Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Lenore!"
Quoth the Raven "Nevermore."

"Prophet!" said I, "thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!—
Whether Tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted—
On this home by Horror haunted—tell me truly, I implore—
Is there—is there balm in Gilead?—tell me—tell me, I implore!"
Quoth the Raven "Nevermore."

"Prophet!" said I, "thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us—by that God we both adore—
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore."
Quoth the Raven "Nevermore."

"Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend!" I shrieked, upstarting—
"Get thee back into the tempest and the Night's Plutonian shore!
Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken!—quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!"
Quoth the Raven "Nevermore."

And the Raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted—nevermore!

​


​

Edgar Allen Poe
 
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jsfisher;;10158487 said:
Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?


Explode it any way you like...still finite.


I don't know if it could even be called an explosion. All he's talking about is a duplicate. ie: A total of two identical brains.

Extremely finite.

Jabba, of course (were he to ever read this) would respond that if the duplication could be repeated infinitely then there would be infinite identical brains. IOW, if there was such a thing as infinity then there'd be infinite things.

It's far worse than a simple tautology; it's raving lunacy.
 
Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?

I think it should be noted and celebrated that Jabba responded to someone on the thread other than godless dave (not to detract from godless dave's posts at all, they are very good and well argued).

However, Jabba, you are equivocating the meanings of separate and different.

A perfect replica of a brain's biology, although currently impossible, would result in a new, distinct, separate but IDENTICAL brain. The consciousness that would be an emergent process of that new brain would be new, distinct, separate but IDENTICAL, not different.

The earth and humans' occupation of it will not last forever. We'll probably vanish before the earth does, but even if humans persist to the heat death of the sun, our time here is finite. The universe is unbounded but finite. The number of ways our DNA can be arranged while still keeping us human is finite. The universe contains a finite amount of matter. Nothing in your calculation can rely on infinity, even if infinity was a number, which it is not.

But this endless circle of musing about impossible replication of brains and speculation about someone in the 20th or 21st century reproducing with someone who died over two thousand years ago seems to be distracting you from the very subject this thread is about.

Do you have any evidence for any kind of immortality - for consciousness being able to survive the death of the brain, for 'souls', or any other aspect of immortality? I really think that this thread and the participants therein are crying out for some evidence to consider.
 
I call Poe.


- Would you say that a sperm cell from Arthur, King of the Britons and an ovum from the lost Lenore, together, would represent a potential brain?

Or just a new and totally epic version of the poetic Edda?


- What if the Merchant of Venice got it on with the Whore of Babylon? Would that result in infinite Pizza Kebabs?

Enquiring minds want to know.
 
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Like an alcoholic trying out social drinking, I sometimes pop in and check out the "progress" here. It is dangerous to indulge a prior addiction, but I think I can stop.

To cut the chaff, perhaps Jabba should just post: "What if there was an immortal soul and we are reincarnated... What then? Well, then I would be right!" It is the same level of argument as he has recently tried, and it might save a lot of time.
 
- Changing the wording probably won't help -- but, just in case...
- Would you say that a sperm cell from your dad and an ovum from Cleopatra, together, would represent a potential brain?

An impossible potential brain, because there was no way for the two of them to ever meet.

Time travel isn't possible so there's no reason to include it in our calculation.

(Normally this would be an opportunity to insert a joke about my dad's age, but I stopped doing that after my hairline receded farther than his).
 
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Mojo,
- But doesn't the fact that a perfect replica of the brains biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain -- and consequently, a new and different experiencer -- "explode" that finite number?

Not in the least. As you agreed a few pages back, a perfect replica of a brain's biology would produce a new, distinct, separate brain that is identical to the original. The "experiencer" would also be identical to the original.

The ability to make copies of things does not lead to infinity. You're still limited by the available raw materials.
 
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- Changing the wording probably won't help


That's actually the nearest you have come to being correct so far, but the word "probably" is not necessary.

If only you could apply this idea to your future posting in this thread...
 
- Changing the wording probably won't help -- but, just in case...
- Would you say that a sperm cell from your dad and an ovum from Cleopatra, together, would represent a potential brain?

Is this a joke, Jabba?


Jabba- doesn't the fact that an "experiencer"/"self"/"soul" is not a separately existing thing, but is instead an ongoing process, an emergent property, "explode" your entire concept?

Jabba has yet to understand that the sense of self isn't a separately existing thing.
Perhaps in the new forum?
 
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