• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Future of the Forum

This forum will not truly survive with its spirit intact without two things.

#1 The entire backlog of posts/threads.

This is the brain of the forum. If it has to live on with new software, so be it. It is of vast importance that it be searchable with correct user names (nicknames). That means the privacy purge, if one happens, cannot and should not include nicknames. It would be nice if the threads literally survive the transfer (meaning they can be bumped), but if they only survive in archive form, so be it.


#2 The MA.

This is the soul of the forum. It is a damn fine MA and I've been more than intimate with several internet forums over the past 20 years. The includes the entire MA, not just the rules (go ahead, click it and read it). That means the implementation of the methods as well. If someone is stuck on upgrading the forum software (or changing it entirely) several ad-ons (depending upon what software is chosen) are going to have to be implemented, possibly even created. Not the least of which is the report system. Now, I said this about one page ago, but I am saying it again: In my opinion #2 requires Darat. Period. The MA is Darat. Darat is the MA. Full stop. (You would think I would end the paragraph there but I'm not going to!) If whoever is in charge is reading this, I beg of you please ask Darat to stay on in his full position. Darat, I beg you to accept when they ask. **** apologies. We don't have time for that ******* ****.



(Certain parts of #1 and #2 will be a damn nightmare if a software upgrade or software switch is involved. So I hope I explained better now why I was in a bit of a huff over that happening, here and in the FC thread. I apologize to icerat. But I guess I just have to have faith that whoever ends up doing it will be willing to work through that nightmare. And now is as good a time as any if someone is serious about it.)
 
RemieV said:
Emily was continuing a conversation with me about why the JREF should want to have their brand on the forum. These things aren't actually happening, or even being considered.

For the bolded part, that isn't really true. In fact, it's the opposite. The JREF proper is doing a great number of things that never actually get mentioned on the forum. You'd have to be at TAM or be a member of the JREF itself to see what their goals are and how they are currently achieving them. The forum just isn't involved in any of that. We are separate entities. So, from here, we seem to be the majority of the JREF. Not from there. Again, forumites make up a tiny, tiny percentage of TAM attendees; a tiny percentage of JREF donors. They will function just fine without us, and since the TAM attendance continually grows, they appear to be marketing somewhere, and wherever it is, it's working.
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I think you missed the "To me" at the beginning of the bolded part.
 
Ok folks, just going to add my perspective to the fast moving thread so people can get a better handle on what's been happening and people's motivations -

(1) A week ago I put my hand up and offered resources to help manage and maintain the forum from a technical perspective. As most know there have been serious problems, and I have significant experience and expertise in the area, as well as the ability to commit the time and resources. I simply didn't want to lose this fabulous resource, and I still don't

(2) In discussions about fixing the issues it became clear that the JREF did not have an emotional investment in the forum, did not want to continue support for the forum, and haven't for some time. It doesn't fit in to their vision of where JREF should be heading, and is a drain on time and resources. I believe Sharon was instrumental in convincing them not to just simply close the whole thing down - she deserves the community's thanks

(3) This was all occurring in the context of severe performance issues and the risk of the hardware failing completely and everything being lost.

(4) In this context, as part of establishing how to proceed, which involved communication that was copied to both Sharon, Rick Adams, and at least one other board member, the JREF principles clearly decided I had the know-how and resources to manage the forum and offered to let me simply take it over and get it fixed. They had a few requests regarding decoupling from the JREF name. I was more than surprised to receive the offer but agreed. My motivation was purely to not lose this forum, which I enjoy greatly. Rick and I have continued to have good communication in solving issues.

(5) The first order of business was dealing with the immediate risk of hardware failure and the loss of all data. After a number of attempts Rick managed to do a successful off-server backup so all would not be lost. I was given access to the server (not the forum itself, I've never had admin access and still don't) to get an understanding of the issues involved in transferring it to a new server to solve the immediate, critical, problems. This is just like any other technician working with web servers or your computers or any websites that you access, that would theoretically give me the ability to rummage through the data - but it would be quite a time consuming and difficult thing to do. Every person at the data center where the server is stored has potentially the same ability, much like technical staff at Hotmail or Google or anywhere else. I have not looked at any personal data, and I will not look at any personal data. To do so would be both unethical and illegal and put myself and my company at legal risk. Companies all the time must make decisions on who they trust to handle their data, in this situation JREF trusted me - note: not anonymous forumite "icerat" - but real world me. From the beginning we have been dealing with these issues using my corporate email account.

(6) The next order of business was to speak to all the mods/admins about the proposal and get everyone on board to get their input and ideas and make things happen to save the fourm. Unfortunately under the strain of constant peppering from curious and upset forumites Sharon revealed some of what was going on but without being able to fill in all the details (on handling privacy etc etc) and before the mods/admins were involved in the discussion. I think it's was the cumulative pressure she was under rather than Darats' emails per se that led to her "vitriolic" comments, have some sympathy for her role, it's not really what she was hired for.

Now, lots of people were understandably confused and pissed off. The admins obviously should have been in the loop earlier but it didn't happen. Fortunately good lines of communications now exist between myself, Darat, Lisa, Locknar and most other admins and mods, as well with Jeff Wagg who has great experience with this system and I know many of you have great faith in. We and JREF are pretty much all on the same page now and we're putting together a proposal and timeline for how we think things should proceed, addressing all the issues regarding privacy and content etc. They were all areas I intended to address before anything drastic happened.

The short of it is that a bunch of people who love this place want to save it, and are working to do so. For now, things are much the same as they were. The forum is still at risk of imminent failure (hello lagging) but JREF now has a backup. A plan to move forward is being developed, and we'll let everyone know what it is and asking for input as soon as it's more concrete. In the meantime you can help us try to work out a new name for our favourite place to waste time.

I hope that clarifies things. Fire away with questions publicly or in PM
 
Darat said:
Folks - my emails make it clear that I was pissed off, but that's water under the bridge and my personal feelings shouldn't harm any attempts to retain the forum pretty much "as is" just not under the control of the JREF. In the end it boils down to the simple fact that I don't want the forum to disappear.

I will be helping the folk trying to take over the running and ownership of the Forum and I hope that gives some reassurance to members especially that any privacy concerns will be addressed before any change of ownership. Privacy and confidentiality is something I've always treated with the utmost seriousness.

I've worked with a lot of the folk who are now trying to save things (mod team and the like) so I know they are also sincere in their wishes for the forum to continue, and the "newbies" involved seem to me to be as passionate about securing the future of the forum as everyone else is.

I'm certain as I can be of anything that it is not going to be plain sailing from here on in and there will be further ..er... discussions but I do now think there is a real chance the forum can be transitioned without losing a lot of what has made it work for a long time - that is us members. I think that a lot more will be done from now on to communicate with everyone involved and by that I mean again us members.

I changed my signature last night... it seemed very apt somehow.
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Darat,

I know we have disagreed vigorously (to use a diplomatic term) in the past about how you do your volunteer job here, and would most likely have continued to disagree vigorously in the future, whenever the whole topic came up again... and yet, even I do not think that you deserve to be treated like this. Since the obscenity rules are still in force I cannot express exactly what I think of that.

It´s odd, really... there have been enough times in the past where I would have been happy to hear you are stepping down as an admin. But now, when you actually are stepping down, my first thought was "oh ****". At the very least, I had been looking forward to discussing certain rules without the immovable "JREF says so" and "Randi wants it that way" standing in the way of open debate.

There have been too many ugly scenes for me to simply echo the others saying that you´ve done a great job as admin, but in any case, you´ve been volunteer admin for ten years, give or take a little, and I can at least appreciate the kind of dedication that takes. So, at least, thanks for all the hard and unpaid work, Darat. Should we ever meet in person, the beer is on me.

Yours,
Chaos

P.S.: Your e-mails were a lot more civil than mine would have been.
 
Darat said:
Folks - my emails make it clear that I was pissed off, but that's water under the bridge and my personal feelings shouldn't harm any attempts to retain the forum pretty much "as is" just not under the control of the JREF. In the end it boils down to the simple fact that I don't want the forum to disappear.

I will be helping the folk trying to take over the running and ownership of the Forum and I hope that gives some reassurance to members especially that any privacy concerns will be addressed before any change of ownership. Privacy and confidentiality is something I've always treated with the utmost seriousness.

I've worked with a lot of the folk who are now trying to save things (mod team and the like) so I know they are also sincere in their wishes for the forum to continue, and the "newbies" involved seem to me to be as passionate about securing the future of the forum as everyone else is.

I'm certain as I can be of anything that it is not going to be plain sailing from here on in and there will be further ..er... discussions but I do now think there is a real chance the forum can be transitioned without losing a lot of what has made it work for a long time - that is us members. I think that a lot more will be done from now on to communicate with everyone involved and by that I mean again us members.

I changed my signature last night... it seemed very apt somehow.
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Thank you.

And I do find your new sig a majestic one.

Keep up the good work (and us informed)!
 
The migrated forum will need a new name / domain. I don't think it's too early to be thinking about that.
 
icerat said:
Ok folks, just going to add my perspective to the fast moving thread so people can get a better handle on what's been happening and people's motivations -

<snipped for brevity>
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Thanks for taking the time to keep us informed, icerat. Many people appreciate it.
 
First thing first:

Czarcasm said:
The Veritas Forum
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No.


Secondly I would like to state that I have absolutely zero knowledge that would be helpful but from what I've read are my following assumptions and understandings true?

1. The JREF will be providing limited support for 6 months to ease transition.

2. Icerat has taken over the technical aspects of running the forum. This may or may not lead to donations from members, enforced or voluntary.

3. There isn't much of an issue over anything technical including privacy issues, but some people are understandably assuming there is because of limited knowledge of the systems involved.

4. There is an available system that won't cost a huge amount that will enable a majority if not all of the content of the forum to be kept after the change because the new forum software that may be switched to can allow a total import from VBulletin.

5. This is at the same time a storm in a teacup (because of the relative ease of transfer once things have been straightened out) AND a major issue (because the straightening is taking a buttload of time because the JREF has decided communication is something that happens to other people).

Would that be a relatively accurate summary so far?
 
MikeG said:
And lose years and years of valuable discussion? I think not......
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The_Fire said:
Congrats. You just made it sound as if people who would not be capable of affording a potential fee are part of the peasant underclass and that the educational part of the foundation should only be available to those who can pay. You also managed to make it sound as if only people of means have a possible knowledge of science or tech or any of the many subjects discussed here.

Yes, the JREF have a right to protect their brand, but you seem to forget that the E stands for EDUCATION not exclusivity.

It has been part of the foundations mission statement, as I understand it, from as long as I have been a member of this board to educate EVERYONE, not just those who can afford it.
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The reality is not everything is free. Someone else cannot always be the one to pay. There are expenses involved with running a forum so if they have to charge a small fee, so be it.
 
Ampulla of Vater said:
The reality is not everything is free. Someone else cannot always be the one to pay. There are expenses involved with running a forum so if they have to charge a small fee, so be it.
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My son belongs to Something Awful and I guess they have a policy of if you get "banned" you have to pay $10 to come back and the money goes towards running the forum. I'd like to see something like that, and also for people who've been banned here. Pay $10 and we'll lift the ban.
 
Lisa Simpson said:
My son belongs to Something Awful and I guess they have a policy of if you get "banned" you have to pay $10 to come back and the money goes towards running the forum. I'd like to see something like that, and also for people who've been banned here. Pay $10 and we'll lift the ban.
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I'm sure some people would be more than happy to keep doing that...

They also have some... interesting features where you can buy titles for other posters if you don't like them. In gaudy red.
 
TubbaBlubba said:
They also have some... interesting features where you can buy titles for other posters if you don't like them. In gaudy red.
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I'd be less interested in doing that. I think given the heated nature of things here, we don't need to add to the vitriol. ::snicker::
 
MarkCorrigan said:
2. Icerat has taken over the technical aspects of running the forum.
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At present mostly an advisory role while a proper plan is in place that key people are on board with. Once a transition is made I'll be responsible for it, but there's plenty of other members who have offered their expertise in areas that exceed mine who will also be contributing.

This may or may not lead to donations from members, enforced or voluntary.
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definitely not enforced. I can't imagine donations won't be accepted however.

3. There isn't much of an issue over anything technical including privacy issues, but some people are understandably assuming there is because of limited knowledge of the systems involved.
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people were just reacting to the unknown.

4. There is an available system that won't cost a huge amount that will enable a majority if not all of the content of the forum to be kept after the change because the new forum software that may be switched to can allow a total import from VBulletin.
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The current draft of the plan has us moving the site to new hardware as is, then transitioning to new software at a later date. That may change. This also has to occur in a manner that takes legal and privacy concerns in to consideration

5. This is at the same time a storm in a teacup (because of the relative ease of transfer once things have been straightened out) AND a major issue (because the straightening is taking a buttload of time because the JREF has decided communication is something that happens to other people).
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I miss Carl Sagan.

Would that be a relatively accurate summary so far?
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pretty much!
 
idoubtit said:
But it was not news that the forum was funded by the JREF who was not involved much in day to day moderation or care of it. It was left to its own devices for years. It has turned into a large database that contains a huge amount of content that is unrelated to skepticism or education or the purpose of the org. It makes no sense to continue in this fashion when it needs greater attention to function technically.
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Dumbest. Excuse. Ever. This can only have been conjured up by someone who is old and completely unfamiliar with the dynamics of all internet forums.

The idea that this forum should have been forced into some idiotic constraints within the parameters of some capriciously determined "mission" completely contradicts the idea of free thinking.

Despite what the sclerotic overseers might consider to be noise "unrelated to skepticism", there is a higher concentration of debunking and education going on here than just about anywhere else. Talk about missing the forest for the trees!
 
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MarkCorrigan said:
First thing first:



No.


Secondly I would like to state that I have absolutely zero knowledge that would be helpful but from what I've read are my following assumptions and understandings true?

1. The JREF will be providing limited support for 6 months to ease transition.


2. Icerat has taken over the technical aspects of running the forum. This may or may not lead to donations from members, enforced or voluntary.
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No. Voluntary only. The discussion about the forum being a paid service was in a conversation about why the JREF would want to keep the forum in the first place, as it doesn't add value to their brand or inspire JREF memberships and doesn't result in donations to the JREF from forumites.

3. There isn't much of an issue over anything technical including privacy issues, but some people are understandably assuming there is because of limited knowledge of the systems involved.
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No. Potentially, the privacy issue could be solved easily, but the JREF hasn't made a statement yet saying that they are ensuring the private info will be secured. The issue isn't a lack of understanding of the systems, but the recognition that us, commenters in a thread, saying that it's possible and simple does not mean it will be done. This is not something they had planned on from the get-go. Icerat is actually the one who brought up the privacy issue TO the JREF. It isn't something they had insisted on, or even mentioned.

4. There is an available system that won't cost a huge amount that will enable a majority if not all of the content of the forum to be kept after the change because the new forum software that may be switched to can allow a total import from VBulletin.
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Yes. However, Darat would be necessary to the transition as he created add-ons that allowed the forum software to continue functioning past its expiration date.

5. This is at the same time a storm in a teacup (because of the relative ease of transfer once things have been straightened out) AND a major issue (because the straightening is taking a buttload of time because the JREF has decided communication is something that happens to other people).

Would that be a relatively accurate summary so far?
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So, eh, sort of.
 
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