Quantum Field Theory: The Woo Stops Here

[Donn]

Depends on the definition, sorry. A woo peddler may simply posit that there are non-natural field equivalents to QFT that act in that undetected world to capture information from this, placing all the woo on the 'other side.' Voilá, woo-based afterlife piggybacking on QFT.

Other side --->??<---This side.
  _____________/
/
What happens here ??

The other side - the undetected world - is "capturing" information from this world. This implies a connection and therefore a detectable event.

If the information makes zero impact on the other side, how can the other side know there was information at all?

 

[jond]

Other side --->??<---This side.
  _____________/
/
What happens here ??

The other side - the undetected world - is "capturing" information from this world. This implies a connection and therefore a detectable event.

If the information makes zero impact on the other side, how can the other side know there was information at all?

Right.

Here's my take (feel free to correct me, IANAS): at this point we are certain that the "self" or "identity" or "consciousness" is either in whole or in part a function of the brain. Either the brain generates "the self" internally, or something external causes our neurons to fire in such a way that we get this "self." This tells me that in order for any part of our "selves" to get to the other side, the "soul" (for lack of a better word, and it is the most frequently used one) must in some way interact with our brains. This interaction is, then, a physical one and is subject to QFT.

If someone posits a non-physical soul that has no possible interaction with our brains, then it has no possible means of acquiring any information that might in any way be considered our "selves" that get sent on to the other side, or of generating the brain commands that make our "selves" happen.

And: if they are positing something that cannot in any way be detected, then they're offering something as meaningful as "what lies beyond the event horizon of the formless." It might exist, but as there can be no possible way of detecting it then it's pointless to even consider it.

 

[Donn]

jond, right That's the way I see it.

It's like a sealed room with (perfect) motion detectors attached to an alarm. If you can break-in and steal the tv but the alarm never goes off then the tv is still there and you don't exist.

 

[PixyMisa]

In what way does something undetectable interact with our world?

You are positing (purely as a hypothetical) that information passes from our world into the woo world.

Information is physical. It has energy and momentum. When that information passes from our world to the woo world, if the interaction is purely one-directional, that energy and momentum is lost - a violation of conservation laws.

 

[PixyMisa]

Depends on the definition, sorry. A woo peddler may simply posit that there are non-natural field equivalents to QFT that act in that undetected world to capture information from this, placing all the woo on the 'other side.' Voilá, woo-based afterlife piggybacking on QFT.

That's straight back to arguing for a universe that is not logically consistent. In which case you lose the argument by definition.

 

[steenkh]

Then it matters not, for it has no intersection with reality.


Perhaps, but there is zero evidence for any fantasy world. Idle speculation in that regard is just hunting for unicorns.

That is what I have said all the time: instead of declaring it impossible, it should be declared meaningless speculation.

You are positing (purely as a hypothetical) that information passes from our world into the woo world.

Information is physical. It has energy and momentum. When that information passes from our world to the woo world, if the interaction is purely one-directional, that energy and momentum is lost - a violation of conservation laws.

You are assuming that the other world and interaction with it conforms to our laws. Information in that other world might not have energy and momentum, and accordingly would not rob it from our world.

 

[dlorde]

If someone posits a non-physical soul that has no possible interaction with our brains, then it has no possible means of acquiring any information that might in any way be considered our "selves" that get sent on to the other side, or of generating the brain commands that make our "selves" happen.

Positing a 'soul' that has no possible interaction with our brains is simply positing an entirely independent entity of some kind - an imaginary entity, to all intents & purposes, if non-physical. It would be meaningless to call it your soul if it had no possible interaction with you; you'd be more justified to call some alien on a distant planet your alien.

 

[dlorde]

You are assuming that the other world and interaction with it conforms to our laws. Information in that other world might not have energy and momentum, and accordingly would not rob it from our world.

This looks like a reformulation of the interaction problem of dualism. How can there be interaction if there is no energy transfer? Information is a manifestation of energy & momentum. If your hypothetical universe has no energy or momentum, it can't interact; there is no way to 'read' the information.

 

[PixyMisa]

You are assuming that the other world and interaction with it conforms to our laws. Information in that other world might not have energy and momentum, and accordingly would not rob it from our world.

Not possible. The information is coming from our side. Conservation laws apply on our side. The hypothetical situation would break all those conservation laws on our side.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Not possible. The information is coming from our side. Conservation laws apply on our side. The hypothetical situation would break all those conservation laws on our side.

To harken back to previous thoughts:

Are there not 6+ additional dimensions beyond our 4 standard dimensions in QFT that we can not imagine, understand, or measure? Information / energy / whatever could move about in those incomprehensible dimension(s) unknown to us in our 4 dimensions, no? Can we state with certainty that no information in those inconceivable dimensions can interact with an imponderable universe outside our own? Or even, that the soul could be a feature of those 6+ dimensions that are hidden from us, and not require an imponderable universe at all?

 

[PixyMisa]

To harken back to previous thoughts:

Are there not 6+ additional dimensions beyond our 4 standard dimensions in QFT that we can not imagine, understand, or measure? Information / energy / whatever could move about in those incomprehensible dimension(s) unknown to us in our 4 dimensions, no?

No. That would create conservation violations all over the place; we'd know instantly. More than that, no technology more advanced than a pointy stick would work reliably.

 

[The Greater Fool]

No. That would create conservation violations all over the place; we'd know instantly. More than that, no technology more advanced than a pointy stick would work reliably.

I don't see how that follows.

Conservation involves the 4 dimensions we live in, and it's fairly well understood in those 4 dimensions. We don't know anything at all about the other 6+ dimensions, what they consist of, how our 4 dimension impact (or don't) them.

How can it be stated with certainty that those 6 dimensions can or cannot... anything?

 

[SusanB-M1]

I don't see how that follows.

Conservation involves the 4 dimensions we live in, and it's fairly well understood in those 4 dimensions. We don't know anything at all about the other 6+ dimensions, what they consist of, how our 4 dimension impact (or don't) them.

How can it be stated with certainty that those 6 dimensions can or cannot... anything?

Isn't it something like because they are so small that they would have no effect?

 

[The Greater Fool]

Isn't it something like because they are so small that they would have no effect?

Since we cannot fathom the additional 6+ dimensions, how can we make any claim as to the size of the particles or forces within? OR, how large or small (or plentiful) does a particle or force need to be in said dimensions to be able to retain information on a soul? How large or small is a soul?

How is any answer supportable?

 

[The Norseman]

To harken back to previous thoughts:

Are there not 6+ additional dimensions beyond our 4 standard dimensions in QFT that we can not imagine, understand, or measure? Information / energy / whatever could move about in those incomprehensible dimension(s) unknown to us in our 4 dimensions, no? Can we state with certainty that no information in those inconceivable dimensions can interact with an imponderable universe outside our own? Or even, that the soul could be a feature of those 6+ dimensions that are hidden from us, and not require an imponderable universe at all?

How then can anything so specific as a number (6+) be said of these things which are unknowable? Do you have any more information on who has said these things as related to QFT?

 

[PixyMisa]

I don't see how that follows.

Conservation involves the 4 dimensions we live in, and it's fairly well understood in those 4 dimensions. We don't know anything at all about the other 6+ dimensions, what they consist of, how our 4 dimension impact (or don't) them.

How can it be stated with certainty that those 6 dimensions can or cannot... anything?

Conservation is conservation. If momentum or energy or charge were leaking out into the other N dimensions, by definition they would be leaving our observable four. We'd know instantly, because the observable Universe would be disintegrating all around us.

This is not happening. So if there are more dimensions, their properties must be such that this would not happen.

 

[PixyMisa]

Since we cannot fathom the additional 6+ dimensions, how can we make any claim as to the size of the particles or forces within?

Simple, as I said. Any effect hypothetical additional dimensions may have on the four dimensions that we can observe... Can be observed.

Those extra dimensions explain the laws of physics; they don't change them. The laws of physics are what they are.

 

[Aepervius]

That is actually wrong. If life affects the afterlife but the afterlife does not affect life, then science cannot rule any such thing out. In other words, if you go to Heaven but this information will never be known in our world, then it cannot be ruled out, except by common sense.

Actually the problem is that if you have an effect you have interaction, or at least particle are going to be missing on tally on this side.

To take the example of high school below, "An afterhighschool that is actually an after high school must by definition interact with high school." well yes, because if there was no after high school, the student would stay in high school. The fact that student *exit* and disappear for ever from high school outside of the night /day cycle is evidence of an after high school.

Same as with a gas container leaking, if there was no interraction, i.e. at least an interface & hole, the container would not leak.

In physic this translate by tally of particle not being right and particle missing, despite covering the whole range of everyday interraction and energy.

 

[Aepervius]

What conservation laws would be broken for by interactions that cannot be detected? How do we even know that conservation laws exist in that other fantasy world?

You need to have exchange of quanta. If you have not, then there is no interraction in this universe.

Now what you could pretend is that quanta are lost on this side, then immediately transmitted back from the other side to make it look as if there was no interraction and rpetend law of conservation do not exists on the other side.

That could not be excluded true, but then again you can simply posit any magical explanation outside of science, simply pretend faery replace our live brain and soul at the moment of death with a dead duplicate and place the live one in a parallel universe paradise, and simply say "nananneeeere you can't disprove that !".

Sure. But then you are going outside of any science falsification and evidence you then are simply stating "I discard QFT and everything and make my own universe".

 

[asydhouse]

An afterhighschool that is actually an after high school must by definition interact with high school.

No, wait. That's a retarded definition. Nothing I did after high school interacted with high school in any way, shape, or form.

I mean, it would be freaking awesome if what I know now, if who I am now, could somehow inform my perceptions, my decisions when I was a sophomore in high school. But as far as I can tell, that's not how After High School works. And I have no reason to think that After Life works any different. Your baseless assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.

The point is that for you to have an after high school life, you had to leave the high school. There is a physical continuity between you being in high school, and you living after you left.


The thing with life after death is the death part: there's no method of getting you out of the high school. Your body is in the gymn, and decomposing, and there is no signal emanating from your corpse. Nothing traveled out of you at the moment of death.

The best you can hope for is some kind of recording mechanism somehow observing you from the inside, and recording your every moment into some other substrate which doesn't connect with this universe.

It comes down to having your cake and eating it. There's no signal, no connection… so you posit magical observation and transport of signal to… somewhere not in this universe… somehow.

You all may consider that a valid view of reality, but to my mind it's just special pleading sophistry.