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Dowsing by a Skeptic

For someone who was a skeptic until just recently, this post also seems problematic (emphasis mine):
How many energies are there ?
Post by Mick » Thu May 29, 2014 8:36 am
Is there just one Earth energy or are there several ?

The reason I ask is that I once knew a bloke who is extraordinarily gifted who use to talk of the "Force of the Earth", as if it were just one force. He could do wonderful things, and could tell the future on an individual basis with amazing accuracy. I know the Force of the Earth is a serious thing, and suspect that it's the same Force that dowsers tap into, but I am not certain.

While I'm at it does anyone here know anything of the power of a Caul ?
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uvar said:
For someone who was a skeptic until just recently, this post also seems problematic (emphasis mine):
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It does rather remind me of the enthusiastic Christians who like to say that they used to be atheists. Upon questioning, it usually turns out that they were actually not-particularly-committed Christians, which they now consider to be essentially atheism.
 
My heart sank when I read this on GH today, but it seems to fit this thread. If I should not have quoted all of this, will mods please delete? Thank you.
Precious harp stolen in California and found by dowser in Arkansas -over the phone!

http://www.amazon.com/Elizabeth-Lloyd-Mayer/e/B001IOBFGU#

In 1991, when her daughter’s rare, hand-carved harp was stolen, Lisby Mayer’s familiar world of science and rational thinking turned upside down. After the police failed to turn up any leads, a friend suggested she call a dowser—a man who specialized in finding lost objects. With nothing to lose—and almost as a joke—Dr. Mayer agreed. Within two days, and without leaving his Arkansas home, the dowser located the exact California street coordinates where the harp was found.

Deeply shaken, yet driven to understand what had happened, Mayer began the fourteen-year journey of discovery that she recounts in this mind-opening, brilliantly readable book. Her first surprise: the dozens of colleagues who’d been keeping similar experiences secret for years, fearful of being labeled credulous or crazy.

Extraordinary Knowing is an attempt to break through the silence imposed by fear and to explore what science has to say about these and countless other “inexplicable” phenomena. From Sigmund Freud’s writings on telepathy to secret CIA experiments on remote viewing, from leading-edge neuroscience to the strange world of quantum physics, Dr. Mayer reveals a wealth of credible and fascinating research into the realm where the mind seems to trump the laws of nature.

She does not ask us to believe. Rather she brings us a book of profound intrigue and optimism, with far-reaching implications not just for scientific inquiry but also for the ways we go about living in the world.
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SusanB-M1 said:
My heart sank when I read this on GH today, but it seems to fit this thread. If I should not have quoted all of this, will mods please delete? Thank you.
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Desperation always leads into the abandonment of reason.

I would bet anything if you asked her about the details of the story 5 different times, Each one would not only vary but get more and more descriptive with each telling. Much like what people do with psychic readings.

She does not ask us to believe. Rather she brings us a book of profound intrigue and optimism, with far-reaching implications not just for scientific inquiry but also for the ways we go about living in the world.
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How would that go? I imagine it includes the phrase "Science doesn't know everything". Sad indeed, But we are all prone to being fooled, but instead of embracing this moment as a "eureka!" moment, Investigate it, question it and research it.
 
Rat said:
It does rather remind me of the enthusiastic Christians who like to say that they used to be atheists. Upon questioning, it usually turns out that they were actually not-particularly-committed Christians, which they now consider to be essentially atheism.
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Or worse, actual Satanists! (ie. They used to occasionally talk to someone who played D&D, owned a black T shirt and once listened to Iron Maiden...... for 15 seconds as a car drove past with it on the stereo)
 
Read the whole thread since my first post.

Good grief. The well of delusion gets quite deep at times, doesn't it? And it doesn't matter how many times you spin the crank and drop the bucket, the poor sod insists on doing everything he can to prevent himself from grabbing the line and being hauled up.
 
SusanB-M1 said:
My heart sank when I read this on GH today, but it seems to fit this thread. If I should not have quoted all of this, will mods please delete? Thank you.
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Well, that's one of those lovely happenstances.... The book is available for sampling and there are a couple of problems. So large I'd question whether this might not be a possible law suit in the making if her offspring/heirs are not in on it.

Lisby Mayer died in 2005. This book was printed in 2007. The copyright is in the name of Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, not her estate, but I'm not sure how that works. But the UC Berkley obituary mentions no published books at the time of her death, so this was very likely not written by Mayer.

The thing is.... the writing does not agree with her work. She recounted the story of the harp but then went on to work up her "Coincidence Theory" which did not crossover into woo. Essentially, she was a proponent of the "deja vu" theory. That there are little connections between the conscious and subconscious that we're still not exactly aware of.

But back to the book. Sloppy work. Regardless of when it was published, the repeated phrasing discussing the "15 years since the theft/return of my daughter's harp" are physically impossible. She died 13.5 years after the incident! Someone is taking liberties, obviously. If something that blatant is left in the book, how much of the rest of it is nonsense?

For purposes of this thread, the tale of the dowser might be accurate... and might not. She's certainly on record of relating the event a number of times prior to her death. But it seems that a bunch of True Believers have taken over her legacy.
 
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Foolmewunz said:
Well, that's one of those lovely happenstances.... The book is available for sampling and there are a couple of problems. So large I'd question whether this might not be a possible law suit in the making if her offspring/heirs are not in on it.

Lisby Mayer died in 2005. This book was printed in 2007. The copyright is in the name of Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, not her estate, but I'm not sure how that works. But the UC Berkley obituary mentions no published books at the time of her death, so this was very likely not written by Mayer.

The thing is.... the writing does not agree with her work. She recounted the story of the harp but then went on to work up her "Coincidence Theory" which did not crossover into woo. Essentially, she was a proponent of the "deja vu" theory. That there are little connections between the conscious and subconscious that we're still not exactly aware of.

But back to the book. Sloppy work. Regardless of when it was published, the repeated phrasing discussing the "15 years since the theft/return of my daughter's harp" are physically impossible. She died 13.5 years after the incident! Someone is taking liberties, obviously. If something that blatant is left in the book, how much of the rest of it is nonsense?

For purposes of this thread, the tale of the dowser might be accurate... and might not. She's certainly on record of relating the event a number of times prior to her death. But it seems that a bunch of True Believers have taken over her legacy.
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Kudos, FMW.
That's the sort of investigation that makes you see just how profoundly dishonest the woo claimsters are.
There's no question of self-deception or self-delusion here- it's at the very least PseudepigraphaWP at work.
 
SusanB-M1 said:
FoolMeWunz

I have posted a link to your post on the GH thread. Also one of the other posters there gave me this link:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-87869.html
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Whew.
"The full text didn't quite match the inside flap, "the dowser located the exact California street coordinates where the harp was found."

Instead, it took posting fliers, anonymous phone calls and liasons in parking lots before the harp was returned.

Nowhere near as simple as "Dr McCoy dowsed and told her the exact street coordinates". If she'd actually gone to the house he had indicated, however, and found the harp, then maybe they would have a story. "

Thanks for the link, SusanB.
 
pakeha said:
Whew.
"The full text didn't quite match the inside flap, "the dowser located the exact California street coordinates where the harp was found."

Instead, it took posting fliers, anonymous phone calls and liasons in parking lots before the harp was returned.

Nowhere near as simple as "Dr McCoy dowsed and told her the exact street coordinates". If she'd actually gone to the house he had indicated, however, and found the harp, then maybe they would have a story. "

Thanks for the link, SusanB.
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Yeah, I read several of the reviews. For the most part they don't pay attention to the dates and seem to be familiar with her work (Google "NY Times Coincidence Theory"), but several point out that she's apparently willing herself to make these coincidences into proof of the paranormal. I think the work was finished by someone else. Someone who embroidered things in a very shoddy way. I mean, it took me all of fifteen minutes to verify the date of her death. Who would then lead off Chapter two commenting (I paraphrase) in the first person, no less, "In the fifteen years since my daughter's harp was recovered..."... ??

Further, according to a couple of the reviewers, she cites "conclusive studies" but doesn't link to them nor cover just what the study "proved". This is not the work of a respected academic, which I believe Dr. Mayer, from all other accounts of her work, seems to have been. Just check the tenor in the NY Times article. I can't say that she didn't change her views in the thirteen months before she died, but I would tend towards doubtful.
 
Foolmewunz said:
At the risk of embarrassing myself, may I ask what GH is?
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It's the Graham Hancock web site and forum!! You see, when I first had a computer and tried browsing (a totally new word to me at the time) I did not think it was going to interest me, but then a friend, who knows me well, said that sooner or later I'd find something that was just up my street. And one day I thought, even though I had ceased reading GH and similar stuff for quite a long time, , 'I wonder if Graham Hancock has a web site?' and of course there it was, and I discovered message boards! Then, emboldened by my new skill, I googled for other message boards, and soon found JREF, and the BBC boards, although of course they ceased some time ago. I'm Susan Doris on GH.
 
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Olowkow said:
Is this something you care to explain?
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I don't see how the two posts are contradictory. One says that he first encountered dowsing years ago, but couldn't get it to work. The other says that he thought dowsing was bunk until recently. There's no reason both can't be true.

As for the harp story, I think people shouldn't claim that the dowser didn't find the exact co-ordinates of the harp. If we assume that the story, as told, is true, then we know that at least he found it to within a two-block radius. That doesn't mean that he got the exact house right, but it also doesn't mean that he doesn't. We don't have enough information to know. But either way, if the story is accurate, then that's still an impressive coincidence.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
As for the harp story, I think people shouldn't claim that the dowser didn't find the exact co-ordinates of the harp. If we assume that the story, as told, is true, then we know that at least he found it to within a two-block radius. That doesn't mean that he got the exact house right, but it also doesn't mean that he doesn't. We don't have enough information to know. But either way, if the story is accurate, then that's still an impressive coincidence.
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No, it proves that someone who saw one of those flyers knew something about the harp. There is no proof that it was ever anywhere near the address identified.

IXP
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
As for the harp story, I think people shouldn't claim that the dowser didn't find the exact co-ordinates of the harp. If we assume that the story, as told, is true, then we know that at least he found it to within a two-block radius. That doesn't mean that he got the exact house right, but it also doesn't mean that he doesn't. We don't have enough information to know. But either way, if the story is accurate, then that's still an impressive coincidence.
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The problem with the story is, as pointed out in the linked thread, that the coordinates given by the dowser don't exist. According to the thread, there is no L avenue in Oakland. I know nothing of Oakland, but I checked Google Maps, as did Jackalgirl in that thread, and there's an L street, but it runs parallel to D Street; there is no intersection of them.

So we know the story to be inaccurate, at least in detail.
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I don't see how the two posts are contradictory. One says that he first encountered dowsing years ago, but couldn't get it to work. The other says that he thought dowsing was bunk until recently. There's no reason both can't be true.
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Not really. His claim was that years ago he paid a dowser to find a well, and the dowser succeeded, but that despite his belief, it did not work for him. Now it does work for him. His belief has not changed, only his own ability in dowsing has changed, according to him.

Squeegee Beckenheim said:
As for the harp story, I think people shouldn't claim that the dowser didn't find the exact co-ordinates of the harp. If we assume that the story, as told, is true, then we know that at least he found it to within a two-block radius. That doesn't mean that he got the exact house right, but it also doesn't mean that he doesn't. We don't have enough information to know. But either way, if the story is accurate, then that's still an impressive coincidence.
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Hitchens Razor applies.
 
IXP said:
No, it proves that someone who saw one of those flyers knew something about the harp. There is no proof that it was ever anywhere near the address identified.

IXP
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If we accept the story as true, then we know that the person who phoned her saw the flier outside his house, and that it was his neighbour who had the harp. So, yes, it would establish that the harp was within the two block radius that she had fliered.

It's certainly better supported by the evidence than the assertion that the dowser didn't get the co-ordinates of where the harp was right because it was picked up elsewhere.
 
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