God right by virtue of being the creator ?

[Belz...]

I did answer it—it is logical to honour the One who has shown such enormous ability as to create the worlds, to abide by the laws he has set out, so that all people can live in harmony.

Why is it "logical" ? That is no answer, because you are assuming that I will agree with your premise.

So God has given laws that will enable those who obey to enter his holy presence.

Ah, now that's a more honest answer: you want to put god on your side so you will be rewarded. It has nothing to do with god being right or just, but with him having power over you.

The laws that Yahweh has laid out are fair and just

Stoning people for mowing the lawn on Saturday doesn't seem very fair to me. Can you explain that one ?

the problem is people do not take into account the situation that existed in those days

Wait, so god's laws don't apply to today ? How is that fair ?

 

[MikeG]

......... we have no evidence of the existence of this God.........

The only thing you have ever written on here that I can agree with. Naturally, you go on to draw utterly the wrong conclusion, dashing all hopes of rationality in the argument.

 

[I Ratant]

I did answer it—it is logical to honour the One who has shown such enormous ability as to create the worlds, to abide by the laws he has set out, so that all people can live in harmony.

As I said laws are to govern people—so a system exists to punish those who transgress! The purpose of laws is primarily to protect.

So God has given laws that will enable those who obey to enter his holy presence. Those who disobey will be shut out of his presence and spend eternity in solitude.

.
The problem still remains, there is nothing exceptional about any of these laws that prove a supernatural author or source...
Any society will have the core rules for civil behavior. All around the world, without ever having experienced any interaction with the god of the Hebrews.
Their laws may be touted as supernaturally inspired, but the human sources will be obvious, no god needed.
The god(s) are added to have some sort of club to scare the ruled with.. Loss of their "eternal soul" forever seems to work, once you can foist the idea of a "soul" as real on the people. That does work, but there are lots of cultures which don't use that imaginary club to get acquiescence from the ruled.
Corporal punishment here and now works very well.

 

[punshhh]

If that's your answer then so be it. I'm not sure I understand what that means, though, but I'll bet the clarification will be just as opaque.

Our limited understanding of the mechanism of our existence (all scientific knowledge taken as read), leaves us in a position of ignorance about our origin and therefore not qualified to address it, including the morality of any agents/creators involved.(I'm beginning to feel like a broken record, the number times I have said this around here).

There are no gods but those we create. What else could I be thinking about ?

A real god that might be out there.

No, I didn't. I don't assume determinism at all. Are you a random post generator ?

Ok, but you wrote this;
"Only if the universe runs on a script, in which case the whole concept of morality is worthless, since all that happens is predetermined"

This is a non sequitur.

You did. That we don't know everything is not a license to make stuff up.

That we don't know everything is a fact.

 

[MikeG]

Our limited understanding of the mechanism of our existence (all scientific knowledge taken as read), leaves us in a position of ignorance about our origin ..........

No it doesn't.

We know all of the important stuff, all of the fundamentals, and we know very well where our gaps in the knowledge of our origins lie and thus what parameters they'll fall within.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yeah, but there's a problem... is god good because he created the rules of what "good" is in the first place, or is there a "good" that is higher than god which is a set of rules which god himself follows in order to maintain that title?

I already answered this. The former, and this is the point of the Abraham/Isaac story. It's not any kind of problem at all.

With of course the caveat that I personally don't believe any of that ****.

 

[abaddon]

If that's your answer then so be it. I'm not sure I understand what that means, though, but I'll bet the clarification will be just as opaque.

Our limited understanding of the mechanism of our existence (all scientific knowledge taken as read), leaves us in a position of ignorance about our origin and therefore not qualified to address it, including the morality of any agents/creators involved.(I'm beginning to feel like a broken record, the number times I have said this around here).

Perhaps that is because you keep repeating the same failed ideas. If you wish to discuss the morality of a creator, demonstrate that such a creator exists first. Otherwise it is moot.

There are no gods but those we create. What else could I be thinking about ?

A real god that might be out there.

There might equally be a teapot in orbit between saturn and jupiter, or fairies at the end of your garden, or demons living in your electrical outlets. Wild speculation does not equal reality.

No, I didn't. I don't assume determinism at all. Are you a random post generator ?

Ok, but you wrote this;
"Only if the universe runs on a script, in which case the whole concept of morality is worthless, since all that happens is predetermined"

This is a non sequitur.

You don't know what non sequitur means?

You did. That we don't know everything is not a license to make stuff up.

That we don't know everything is a fact.

It is true that we don't know everything. That does not mean we don't know anything.

 

[punshhh]

No it doesn't.

We know all of the important stuff, all of the fundamentals, and we know very well where our gaps in the knowledge of our origins lie and thus what parameters they'll fall within.

Note that I said, "all scientific knowledge taken as read". You may think you know the important stuff, but I can see no evidence of this.

Let me point out some gaps;

What is the mechanism resulting in the existence of the fabric of spacetime?

What enables the existence we are aware of to persist?

How come there is something rather than nothing?

Is there anything else (anything other than the physical world we are aware of)?

Is there something we are unaware of which is necessary for this world to exist/persist?

Etc etc...

 

[punshhh]

I don't want to derail, I'll keep it brief

Perhaps that is because you keep repeating the same failed ideas. If you wish to discuss the morality of a creator, demonstrate that such a creator exists first. Otherwise it is moot.

I'm the one saying we can't really discuss it. I am just pointing out basic philosophical perspectives.

There might equally be a teapot in orbit between saturn and jupiter, or fairies at the end of your garden, or demons living in your electrical outlets. Wild speculation does not equal reality.

There's a whole hayrick of straw in there.

You don't know what non sequitur means?

There is one in there, as I pointed out in my response to Belz a couple of posts back.

It is true that we don't know everything. That does not mean we don't know anything.

We don't know how much we know or don't know about our existence.

 

[MikeG]

.......You may think you know the important stuff, but I can see no evidence of this.....

Ooooh, you had to work hard to make that into a personal attack didn't you? Just show me where I ever suggested that I personally know all the important stuff, then I'll take the rest of your post seriously.

 

[Belz...]

Our limited understanding of the mechanism of our existence (all scientific knowledge taken as read), leaves us in a position of ignorance about our origin and therefore not qualified to address it, including the morality of any agents/creators involved.

Yep, just as I said.

A real god that might be out there.

What part of "There are no gods but those we create" didn't you understand ?

Ok, but you wrote this;
"Only if the universe runs on a script, in which case the whole concept of morality is worthless, since all that happens is predetermined"

This is a non sequitur.

How is it a non sequitur ? If we have no choice but to do what the creator has pre-determined, then there is no concept of morality from his point of view.

That we don't know everything is a fact.

So is the fact that fish live in the water but that doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion.

 

[Belz...]

Perhaps that is because you keep repeating the same failed ideas. If you wish to discuss the morality of a creator, demonstrate that such a creator exists first. Otherwise it is moot.

No, no. We're free to speculate. That's part of the point of the OP.

There's a whole hayrick of straw in there.

I guess you don't know what strawmen are, either.

There is one in there, as I pointed out in my response to Belz a couple of posts back.

Saying "it's a non sequitur" is not really pointing out anything. It's a claim that you are yet to back up.

 

[punshhh]

Yep, just as I said.

Feel free to point out how we are qualified discuss it?

What part of "There are no gods but those we create" didn't you understand ?

Its coming through crystal clear now.

How is it a non sequitur ?

We can observe, or contemplate, as a scientist does, that everything that happens in the universe may be predetermined. But we have insufficient understanding of the mechanism of our existence to draw that conclusion.

If we have no choice but to do what the creator has pre-determined, then there is no concept of morality from his point of view.

Yes, but the underlying basis of the world we find ourselves in may be more complex and not strictly predetermined.

So is the fact that fish live in the water but that doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion.

Only in so far as, I am pointing out that we cannot draw conclusions about that which we do not know.

 

[Donn]

Only in so far as, I am pointing out that we cannot draw conclusions about that which we do not know.

Same goes for any and all gods, no matter their definitions.

 

[punshhh]

Same goes for any and all gods, no matter their definitions.

Yes, there is only one thing that we can know for certain (apart from certain axiomatic abstractions, such as are found in maths). Philosophy is required to contextualise the rest.

Are you ready for trial by philosophy?

 

[Belz...]

Feel free to point out how we are qualified discuss it?

We are moral creatures. That's why and how we are qualified.

We can observe, or contemplate, as a scientist does, that everything that happens in the universe may be predetermined. But we have insufficient understanding of the mechanism of our existence to draw that conclusion.
Yes, but the underlying basis of the world we find ourselves in may be more complex and not strictly predetermined.

Actually, your premise allows the conclusion: if we observe that everything is predetermined, then we can conclude that everything is until we have further data.

 

[Correa Neto]

So, now I am a god. I created a brand-new universe. A small planet within it contains sentient creatures. I've got the power. I can wipe them out, make their lives miserable in countless ways, turn their world in to paradise or just choose to do nothing and let them be.

Since morals and ethics are largely relative even within the cultures and civilizations, I am not bound by their standards but they are also not bound to my ow codes. I can judge them and they can judge me.

Yes, I have the power to decimate them, to make them kneel and submit to my will. This will not automatically turn me in to a good god. Some of the things I do will not be considered good by the folks living at that planet just because I can do them or command my minions to do them.

Don't agree with me? Fine, lets make a thought experiment. Put yourself in the place of a guy living inside a city at that planet. You have a wife and three kinds - 15 years-old boy, 13 years-old girl and a 2 years-old toddler. Suddenly a horde of invaders appear and overcomes your city's defenses. You see all the killings and ransacking around the neighbourhood. Now you see a group of invaders storming in to your house. You and your son try to defend your family, but its useless. Now you are watching your son's death; one of the invaders bashes him with a shield while others strike him with swords and axes. As you towards him your leg is hit by an axe; you fall and a sword opens your belly. You see your guts coming out of the gash and falls on the ground where you lay stunned, bleeding and dying. Now, picture yourself seeing the invaders beating, raping and killing your wife. See that corner of the room? Right there, watching it all, crying, are your daughter with your toddler in her arms. As your consciousness fades, you see some invaders grabbing you daughter. "Pretty girl..." one of them says. "This one is mine". Now you see the invader taking your youngest son from her arms and unsheathing his sword.

Now you die, knowing its all part of my plans. I commanded the invaders to do my will. I told them to kill you and your family, to enslave your daughter. Have I told you about hell? Well, its waiting for you. Its because you - or someone else - had sex or did something else in ways I do not approve even if you didn't knew it. See? It was all your fault. But rejoice, it was for greater good, I write straight with crooked lines and I love you. Oh, since I am a powerful god and created its all, I can do whatever I wish and it will be the right thing.

Still think I am good? Still think I deserve worship? Still think I am just and fair?

Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name.

 

[Donn]

It's so easy to do ethics unto you
We are good under god
You are good under sod
It reads like right, so we do

~

 

[MikeG]

......the only way that I can express what I believe is to quote from the Scriptures.....l

Always a problem here, that. This place is about thinking for yourself, and providing evidence to back that up. Quoting from the bible doesn't work on any level in that respect.

 

[Belz...]

I'm answering this because it's on topic.

The laws of God are eternal so there would be no changing of the law---where do you find he has changed his laws?

That's irrelevant. The point is that god CAN change his laws on a whim, and the new laws would be just as good as the old ones, meaning that there STILL isn't an objective moral truth.

That is a good way of putting it.

No, it's not. It's a nonsensical way of putting it, because it assumes its conclusion. It's exactly the same as saying that Belz... is right because he says he's right and that makes him right because he's Belz....