Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Desert Fox]

I bet the statistics for multiple rapists or multiple murderers are below 1 percent DF. Statistically speaking the case that Italians are pursuing virtually never happens. Just like the MOF case where they wrongfully pursued countless individuals as part of a Satanic Ritual when in fact it was almost 100 percent positively the result of a single killer. Italy's own version of the Son of Sam. Yet Mignini did the same thing there, imagined some kind of bizarre ritual and he went after lots of people .

They have a better imagination in Italy then they do a police force.

I looked around for multiple assailants for rapes and was not able to find any statistics either. I know that there are some cases and there are some cases involving rape with a female as a co-perpetrator. Every case I listen to however involved women as one of the perpetrators included both a long term relationships between the man and the woman and the woman herself was submissive to the man. Basically, the male companion subverted her.

Now, there are some women who are into the Dom side of the Dominant and Submissive lifestyle, usually men are the submissive but sometimes women as well. They are less common but not unknown. I guess it is possible but still statistically extremely unlikely.

Looking at the whole idea of satanic ritual murders and how they got so much traction is mystifying. I just do not understand it.

 

[Desert Fox]

My irony meter just went off the scale and broke

Perhaps "Stilicho" would care to actually debate areas of the case here, rather than doing drive-by posts and disappearing. And there's a very sound reason why there's less of a pro-guilt bias on this thread: it's because no pro-guilt arguments stand up to proper, sceptical scrutiny. All that supports a pro-guilt position is an appeal to authority. And once the ECHR (or, if they actually have any good sense, humility and objectivity, the Italian Supreme Court) rules, not even an appeal to authority will help any longer.

I ahve asked a few times the pro guilt side what they think the strongest evidence of guilt is and that I would be willing to discuss in detail. Never seem to get anyone willing to stand up and actually discuss anything.

 

[LondonJohn]

I looked around for multiple assailants for rapes and was not able to find any statistics either. I know that there are some cases and there are some cases involving rape with a female as a co-perpetrator. Every case I listen to however involved women as one of the perpetrators included both a long term relationships between the man and the woman and the woman herself was submissive to the man. Basically, the male companion subverted her.

Now, there are some women who are into the Dom side of the Dominant and Submissive lifestyle, usually men are the submissive but sometimes women as well. They are less common but not unknown. I guess it is possible but still statistically extremely unlikely.

Looking at the whole idea of satanic ritual murders and how they got so much traction is mystifying. I just do not understand it.

Well, in this particular instance (and the Monster of Florence case), the explanation can perhaps be summed up in one word: Mignini.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well, in this particular instance (and the Monster of Florence case), the explanation can perhaps be summed up in one word: Mignini.

Comparatively recently (a few weeks or a month), I watched the documentary "Witch Hunt" where there was the conviction of many couples for child molestation effectively without evidence. Somewhere along the lines, SRA was brought up. Same with several day cares during the later 1980s and early 1990s. Finally, it was a big component with the West Memphis Three using some born again wacko as a expert for the prosecution.

 

[LondonJohn]

I ahve asked a few times the pro guilt side what they think the strongest evidence of guilt is and that I would be willing to discuss in detail. Never seem to get anyone willing to stand up and actually discuss anything.

I believe that if the following evidence was accepted as credible and reliable:

- Kercher's DNA on Sollecito's kitchen knife
- Sollecito's DNA on Kercher's bra clasp
- Sollecito's blood/water partial foot print on the bathmat
- Curatolo's testimony
- Quintavalle's testimony
- Knox's "confession/accusation"

then there would indeed be sufficient evidence to find for guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. However, the trouble of course is that none of the above evidence is credible or reliable.

Another seemingly-common strand of "thinking" among pro-guilt commentators is that there's "such a huge amount of evidence" that it can't all simply be a coincidence - that yes, one might question a few individual pieces of evidence, but there's such an "overwhelmingly large amount" of evidence that taken as a whole it can only show guilt.

Of course, this "argument" is a logical fallacy in this case, since so much of the evidence was the product of confirmation bias, tunnel vision, and possibly malfeasance. And once the ball was rolling, the collection, analysis and interpretation of evidence and testimony was clearly fatally compromised by a blind need to implicate Knox and Sollecito. That's a big factor behind Stefanoni's work (she already had the reference samples of the people whom she knew that the investigators "wanted" her to find), it's a huge factor behind Rinaldi/Boemi's bogus and pseudoscientific "analysis" of the bathmat partial print, and it's an overwhelming factor in the bogus and utterly unreliable (and provably false in areas) testimony of Curatolo and Quintavalle.

 

[Samson]

I looked around for multiple assailants for rapes and was not able to find any statistics either. I know that there are some cases and there are some cases involving rape with a female as a co-perpetrator. Every case I listen to however involved women as one of the perpetrators included both a long term relationships between the man and the woman and the woman herself was submissive to the man. Basically, the male companion subverted her.

Now, there are some women who are into the Dom side of the Dominant and Submissive lifestyle, usually men are the submissive but sometimes women as well. They are less common but not unknown. I guess it is possible but still statistically extremely unlikely.

Looking at the whole idea of satanic ritual murders and how they got so much traction is mystifying. I just do not understand it.

DF and LJ and Tesla I have cited a similar case here quite often, Teina Pora, where he has completed 20 years for a multiple rape murder, but there is a vanishingly small chance he was involved, because he could not give a plausible account connecting himself to the crime scene. The case will soon be heard in London by the privy council, and on recent history, it is certain that it will at the very least be sent for retrial. I suspect, if they have the authority, they will declare him innocent.
It involved a false confession, but it appears he thought he could get a financial reward for assisting the police to solve the crime.

The wiki is fine, one quote

He was held for four days during which he was questioned about the Burdett case for 14 hours without a lawyer.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teina_Pora

 

[LondonJohn]

Barbie's latest article at the Daily Beast talks about a transcript of the interrogation, an obvious error. She also quotes a portion of the first memoriale: “I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrick.” This is more of the same intellectual dishonesty that has characterized Ms. Nadeau's misleading reporting on the case. What Ms. Knox actually wrote was, “And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele’s house” From then on Ms. Knox made a second voluntary statement on 7 November and a letter to her lawyers around 9 November in which she was increasing clear that she was not at the flat. Either Ms. Knox is extraordinarily good at faking the aftermath of making a coerced false statement, or she really did make a coerced false statement on 5-6 November. The latter is far more probable.

Ms. Nadeau's attempts to muddy the water with respect to this sequence of events cannot be ascribed to lack of familiarity with the case. And the notion that an unidentified woman, who does not even look like Ms. Knox, is in any way shape or form "suspicious" is no better than feckless. Bongiorno has made the point since 2008 that Amanda's statements do not logically put Raffaele at the women's flat. There is nothing new in that regard, despite what is obviously Ms. Nadeau's hope, as indicated in this article: that Amanda and Raffaele will accuse each other. Ms. Nadeau does not even bother to entertain the thought that Knox and Sollecito walked in the station that night as suspects in fact, if not in name, despite ample evidence of this. Ms. Nadeau's article is the epitome of shoddy, biased journalism from start to finish.

EDT
There is a great deal about the biological evidence in Raffaele's appeal, but you wouldn't know it from Nadeau's myopic summary.

Nadeau once again shows her lack of journalistic objectivity - and her deficient intellect - in her latest article. It's simply laughable to suggest that the lodging of separate appeals indicates some form of adversarial "split" between Knox and Sollecito. It's equally laughable to suggest that the content of the appeals suggests anything similar.

Nadeau either doesn't know or has disregarded the fact that Knox and Sollecito have had separate legal representation since day 1, and that as a consequence every single facet of their defences (including all court defence, all appeal submissions, all expert work) has been conducted separately. And she obviously either doesn't understand (likely) or overlooks the fact that the strand of Sollecito's appeal which argues that he shouldn't be convicted by association in no way implies that Sollecito's team is suggesting that Knox might have participated in the murder with Guede but without Sollecito.

It seems that many pro-guilt commentators - and people such as Nadeau - are also being somewhat misdirected by the online outpourings of some of Sollecito's more volatile and uncontrolled relatives, who have resorted to trying to defend Sollecito at any cost - even if it involves implying that Knox might have been involved. But nobody should be in any doubt that there's nothing in Sollecito's official (or unofficial) position that in any way indicates such a strategy. Indeed, it would be a foolish strategy to pursue in any case. Rather, his strategy in this area is nothing more than that the courts cannot lawfully come to a decision that if they believe Knox was involved, then by definition it means that Sollecito must also have been involved.

Still, since Nadeau cannot get anything published beyond the rather risible Daily Beast - which is entirely off the radar of 99.5% of the general public - I don't think her uninformed, biased and provocative witterings on this case are of much importance anyhow.........

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh dear. A pro-guilt commentator has again demonstrated her poor reasoning skills, bias and lack of understanding in expressing that she "really like(s) this bit" of an interview with Giulia Bongiorno:

GB: "In that case it was established that there were errors in the collection and analysis of the DNA, we do know that. The only element for which Sollecito was convicted was a hook of a bra that was collected 46 days after the murder in an environment, through which about a hundred people had passed. A requirement for good quality DNA is taking a sample in a pristine environment: it was super-contaminated. "

Q: The body of Yara has spent three months lying in a fallow field, is it a pristine environment?

GB: "It is not for me to answer that."


Now, a truly thoughtful (and objective) analysis of this passage reveals two things:

1) In that final sentence, Bongiorno is correctly saying that each individual case needs to be assessed on its merits. She's saying that the bra clasp evidence is not reliable, and it's not for her to "compare" evidence in the Kercher case with evidence in a totally different case. That's what she means by "It's not for me to answer that".

2) If the case to which the interviewer referred involved the body of a woman (Yara) who had been raped and murdered (for example), then it wouldn't matter if her body had laid in a muddly field for years: if a significant quantity of semen could still be recovered from her genitals and/or her clothes, then it might provide a totally reliable match to an individual male. And if the male in question had claimed that he had never even met the victim, then the DNA evidence would be highly incriminating.

By contrast, the issue with the bra clasp in the Kercher case involves tiny (low template) amounts of DNA, where investigators were demonstrably contaminating the crime scene, where the bra clasp was demonstrably moved around repeatedly and mixed in with a jumble of debris, and where the manner in which the clasp was finally collected was demonstrably improper and pro-contamination (dirty gloves, inexplicably passing the clasp round the group hand-to-hand then placing it back on the floor). And of course the other difference is that the defendant in question here (Sollecito) had a totally valid reason for his DNA to have been in the cottage (though not of course directly upon the bra clasp), and would almost certainly have deposited small amounts of his DNA on Kercher's bedroom door and its handle on the morning of 2nd November.

 

[Samson]

Oh dear. A pro-guilt commentator has again demonstrated her poor reasoning skills, bias and lack of understanding in expressing that she "really like(s) this bit" of an interview with Giulia Bongiorno:

GB: "In that case it was established that there were errors in the collection and analysis of the DNA, we do know that. The only element for which Sollecito was convicted was a hook of a bra that was collected 46 days after the murder in an environment, through which about a hundred people had passed. A requirement for good quality DNA is taking a sample in a pristine environment: it was super-contaminated. "

Q: The body of Yara has spent three months lying in a fallow field, is it a pristine environment?

GB: "It is not for me to answer that."


Now, a truly thoughtful (and objective) analysis of this passage reveals two things:

1) In that final sentence, Bongiorno is correctly saying that each individual case needs to be assessed on its merits. She's saying that the bra clasp evidence is not reliable, and it's not for her to "compare" evidence in the Kercher case with evidence in a totally different case. That's what she means by "It's not for me to answer that".

2) If the case to which the interviewer referred involved the body of a woman (Yara) who had been raped and murdered (for example), then it wouldn't matter if her body had laid in a muddly field for years: if a significant quantity of semen could still be recovered from her genitals and/or her clothes, then it might provide a totally reliable match to an individual male. And if the male in question had claimed that he had never even met the victim, then the DNA evidence would be highly incriminating.

By contrast, the issue with the bra clasp in the Kercher case involves tiny (low template) amounts of DNA, where investigators were demonstrably contaminating the crime scene, where the bra clasp was demonstrably moved around repeatedly and mixed in with a jumble of debris, and where the manner in which the clasp was finally collected was demonstrably improper and pro-contamination (dirty gloves, inexplicably passing the clasp round the group hand-to-hand then placing it back on the floor). And of course the other difference is that the defendant in question here (Sollecito) had a totally valid reason for his DNA to have been in the cottage (though not of course directly upon the bra clasp), and would almost certainly have deposited small amounts of his DNA on Kercher's bedroom door and its handle on the morning of 2nd November.

This is the mathematician Leila Schneps, and ironically she would not normally draw this false analogy, but they are well accustomed to being unquestioned for sloppy work on pmf. Recently she rigorously called them all to account for perpetuating the lie that Sollecito called the police after the postals had arrived.
A very mixed bag.

 

[Planigale]

I think it is worth having a succinct summary of forensic irregularities (with link to source). I think the magnitude of then will help people emphasise the prosecutorial malpractice.

Unfortunately many of those who argue for Sollecito and Knox guilt lie and lie repeatedly, and mud tends to stick.

1) Scientific police report CCTV 'clock' as being too fast rather than slow. (accepted by court)
2) Stefanoni testified that blood drops found outside the cottage were cat's blood this is untrue as real time quantitative PCR (RT qPCR) showed human DNA.
3) Shoeprints reported by prosecution fingerprint experts as being Sollecito's were Guede's (accepted by court).
4) Luminol positive footprints in hall tested negative for blood with TMB (originally result concealed from court by Stefanoni), no confirmatory test for human blood done, and most test negative for DNA. (That is out of four tests that should have been done one positive, two negative and one not done).
5) Much crime scene evidence not collected (bloody clothes left behind).
6) No fibre analysis done
7) Crime scene evidence collected not stored correctly. (towels, bra hook so not suitable for retesting)
8) Prosecution finger print experts analysed footprints on bath mat and pillow case by examining photographs and not original material (unlike defence expert). Photographs analysed were not orthogonal, so would introduce distortion. No sample prints obtained on soft / absorbent surface. No dynamic footprints obtained by walking (as standard forensic anthropology techniques would recommend). The prosecution fingerprint experts utilised the methodology of Louise Robbins discredited as leading to false identification and wrongful convictions.
9) Disc drives damaged during analysis. Computers used whilst in police possession (instead of a forensic copy of the computer memory being examined).
10) Stefanoni claimed to have analysed bra hook STR results using international standards, this was untrue.
11) Stefanoni testified the sample from the knife blade reported as showing Kercher's DNA was quantified by RT qPCT as containing hundreds of picograms, both of which were untrue.
12) Stefanoni refused to provide the original electronic data from the STR analysis despite the judge ordering this. The negative control results for the knife never disclosed.
13) Stefanoni testified to the court there was never any occurrence of contamination in the laboratory but disclosed data from RT qPCR shows negative controls were contaminated by human DNA.
14) CCTV records were never disclosed to the defence but were deleted by the police as of no interest - may have included exculpatory images.
15) Texts on Meredith's phone were deleted whilst the phone was in police possession.

 

[carbonjam72]

Looking at the whole idea of satanic ritual murders and how they got so much traction is mystifying. I just do not understand it.

Well, in this particular instance (and the Monster of Florence case), the explanation can perhaps be summed up in one word: Mignini.

Comparatively recently (a few weeks or a month), I watched the documentary "Witch Hunt" where there was the conviction of many couples for child molestation effectively without evidence. Somewhere along the lines, SRA was brought up. Same with several day cares during the later 1980s and early 1990s. Finally, it was a big component with the West Memphis Three using some born again wacko as a expert for the prosecution.

If I'm remembering Preston/Spezi's MOF book correctly - In the Monster of Florence cases, running from 1968 at the earliest, to 1985, there was a split in opinion among the chief investigators between the single perp theory (supported by an FBI profile in 1989) which has also been called the 'Sardinian Trail'. Versus, the satanic cult ritual assault theory, making it a group crime.

Despite methodical work supporting the single perp theory, and Preston/Spezi believing they had actually identified the actual MOF, the failure to obtain convictions and continuing embarrassment over their failure to solve the case, the 'sardinian trail' portion of the investigation was formally closed, allowing the 'cult' investigators to pursue their quarry.

A conviction was obtained against one person, Pacciano, and the investigators involved received high profile promotions.
Skipping ahead, Mignini didn't get involved until 2002, and only then on the word of a self styled psychic, who sometimes appeared on Italian TV, named Gabriella Carlizzi, when she sent Mignini her 'theories' that a presumed suicide/drowning in 1985 of Dr Narducci was part of a cover-up of the MOF cult ringleaders. (Spezi and Preston had declined her information).

Mignini's decision to involve himself, from a career stand point at least, wasn't crazy, because the previous investigators who had gone this 'satanic cult' route sold their case to the courts, to the Italian public, and were well rewarded with high profile promotions. But Mignini's belief in Carlizzi's theories was bat ◊◊◊◊ crazy.
Spezi had been covering, and ridiculing the case, undermining its credibility. Mignini concluded Spezi must himself be the actual MOF, because why else would he object to Mignini's investigations? The family of Dr Narducci were also charged as being in the 'MOF cult' because of their objections into Mignini's investigations.

These cases, and the fall out, led to Mignini's troubles at the time of the Kercher killing. And Carlizzi had contacted Mignini on Nov 1, before the Kercher killing with another 'illumination', and again immediately after, to link the Kercher killing into the MOF cases.

That's what Mignini pursued, and that's where the crazy talk of satanic ritual sex crimes came from. In a weird way, it's like the McMartin trials and other satanic cases in the US were carried around the world, and took root in Italy.

Amanda Knox is probably as much a victim of US superstitious paranoia, and legal errors, as of the Italian system. It happened in plain sight here in the US as well. We're just as dumb, crazy, medieval, and idiotic as the Italians appear in the Kercher case.

The MOF cases are still active, and Spezi is being retried along with I believe 5 others from an original case against 20 people in Florence that Mignini had put forward, but had been dismissed in 2010 before going to trial. Guitarri has been brought back into the police (I believe), and the official line backing the 'satanic cult' investigation is being at least kept open, if not endorsed.

Spezi is also now being tried for calumnia for having publicly identified the man who is actually likely to be the real MOF.
It may just be that Italy is a lost cause, and escape from their judicial system is the best we can hope for, absent the intervention of a higher authority, like the European Court of Human Rights, or perhaps international prosecutors in the Hague.

The criminals are in charge, and the innocent and good people of Italy are at their mercy.

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

A Conspiracy Theory Gone Mad

If I'm remembering Preston/Spezi's MOF book correctly - In the Monster of Florence cases, running from 1968 at the earliest, to 1985, there was a split in opinion among the chief investigators between the single perp theory (supported by an FBI profile in 1989) which has also been called the 'Sardinian Trail'. Versus, the satanic cult ritual assault theory, making it a group crime.

Despite methodical work supporting the single perp theory, and Preston/Spezi believing they had actually identified the actual MOF, the failure to obtain convictions and continuing embarrassment over their failure to solve the case, the 'sardinian trail' portion of the investigation was formally closed, allowing the 'cult' investigators to pursue their quarry.

A conviction was obtained against one person, Pacciano, and the investigators involved received high profile promotions.

Skipping ahead, Mignini didn't get involved until 2002, and only then on the word of a self styled psychic, who sometimes appeared on Italian TV, named Gabriella Carlizzi, when she sent Mignini her 'theories' that a presumed suicide/drowning in 1985 of Dr Narducci was part of a cover-up of the MOF cult ringleaders. (Spezi and Preston had declined her information).

Mignini's decision to involve himself, from a career stand point at least, wasn't crazy, because the previous investigators who had gone this 'satanic cult' route sold their case to the courts, to the Italian public, and were well rewarded with high profile promotions.

But Mignini's belief in Carlizzi's theories was bat ◊◊◊◊ crazy.

Spezi had been covering, and ridiculing the case, undermining its credibility. Mignini concluded Spezi must himself be the actual MOF, because why else would he object to Mignini's investigations? The family of Dr Narducci were also charged as being in the 'MOF cult' because of their objections into Mignini's investigations.

These cases, and the fall out, led to Mignini's troubles at the time of the Kercher killing. And Carlizzi had contacted Mignini on Nov 1, before the Kercher killing with another 'illumination', and again immediately after, to link the Kercher killing into the MOF cases.

That's what Mignini pursued, and that's where the crazy talk of satanic ritual sex crimes came from. In a weird way, it's like the McMartin trials and other satanic cases in the US were carried around the world, and took root in Italy.

Amanda Knox is probably as much a victim of US superstitious paranoia, and legal errors, as of the Italian system. It happened in plain sight here in the US as well. We're just as dumb, crazy, medieval, and idiotic as the Italians appear in the Kercher case.

The MOF cases are still active, and Spezi is being retried along with I believe 5 others from an original case against 20 people in Florence that Mignini had put forward, but had been dismissed in 2010 before going to trial. Guitarri has been brought back into the police (I believe), and the official line backing the 'satanic cult' investigation is being at least kept open, if not endorsed.

Spezi is also now being tried for calumnia for having publicly identified the man who is actually likely to be the real MOF.

It may just be that Italy is a lost cause, and escape from their judicial system is the best we can hope for, absent the intervention of a higher authority, like the European Court of Human Rights, or perhaps international prosecutors in the Hague.

The criminals are in charge, and the innocent and good people of Italy are at their mercy.

I think this kind of delusional rant is nearly clinical, frankly. No reasonable person would hold such ideas about a grand conspiracy - and anyone that did would be ushered towards the nearest psychiatric clinic. It would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. OK I can understand that some people need conspiratorial thrills to enliven their otherwise mundane lives, but this is at the insane end of the spectrum. God save us.

 

[Bill Williams]

If I'm remembering Preston/Spezi's MOF book correctly - In the Monster of Florence cases, running from 1968 at the earliest, to 1985, there was a split in opinion among the chief investigators between the single perp theory (supported by an FBI profile in 1989) which has also been called the 'Sardinian Trail'. Versus, the satanic cult ritual assault theory, making it a group crime.

Despite methodical work supporting the single perp theory, and Preston/Spezi believing they had actually identified the actual MOF, the failure to obtain convictions and continuing embarrassment over their failure to solve the case, the 'sardinian trail' portion of the investigation was formally closed, allowing the 'cult' investigators to pursue their quarry.

A conviction was obtained against one person, Pacciano, and the investigators involved received high profile promotions.
Skipping ahead, Mignini didn't get involved until 2002, and only then on the word of a self styled psychic, who sometimes appeared on Italian TV, named Gabriella Carlizzi, when she sent Mignini her 'theories' that a presumed suicide/drowning in 1985 of Dr Narducci was part of a cover-up of the MOF cult ringleaders. (Spezi and Preston had declined her information).

Mignini's decision to involve himself, from a career stand point at least, wasn't crazy, because the previous investigators who had gone this 'satanic cult' route sold their case to the courts, to the Italian public, and were well rewarded with high profile promotions. But Mignini's belief in Carlizzi's theories was bat ◊◊◊◊ crazy.
Spezi had been covering, and ridiculing the case, undermining its credibility. Mignini concluded Spezi must himself be the actual MOF, because why else would he object to Mignini's investigations? The family of Dr Narducci were also charged as being in the 'MOF cult' because of their objections into Mignini's investigations.

These cases, and the fall out, led to Mignini's troubles at the time of the Kercher killing. And Carlizzi had contacted Mignini on Nov 1, before the Kercher killing with another 'illumination', and again immediately after, to link the Kercher killing into the MOF cases.

That's what Mignini pursued, and that's where the crazy talk of satanic ritual sex crimes came from. In a weird way, it's like the McMartin trials and other satanic cases in the US were carried around the world, and took root in Italy.

Amanda Knox is probably as much a victim of US superstitious paranoia, and legal errors, as of the Italian system. It happened in plain sight here in the US as well. We're just as dumb, crazy, medieval, and idiotic as the Italians appear in the Kercher case.

The MOF cases are still active, and Spezi is being retried along with I believe 5 others from an original case against 20 people in Florence that Mignini had put forward, but had been dismissed in 2010 before going to trial. Guitarri has been brought back into the police (I believe), and the official line backing the 'satanic cult' investigation is being at least kept open, if not endorsed.

Spezi is also now being tried for calumnia for having publicly identified the man who is actually likely to be the real MOF.
It may just be that Italy is a lost cause, and escape from their judicial system is the best we can hope for, absent the intervention of a higher authority, like the European Court of Human Rights, or perhaps international prosecutors in the Hague.

The criminals are in charge, and the innocent and good people of Italy are at their mercy.

The trouble with all of this above is that it puts so much into context, and explains what is otherwise inexplicable.

And it's random stuff, really.

First is that curious, one-off observation by Mignini himself, that all is troubles started with the Narducci case. This is curious because IIRC it was a quip he made after the Hellmann acquittals. At that time it was unclear what was going to happen with Mignini's own legal troubles.

This is a "WTF?" Weren't Knox and Sollecito being tried on the evidence against them? Apparently not - in grand Italian style there was "something else going one", unavailable to the uninitiated. Dietrology. And even for Mignini, it related back to the Narducci case!

Then there's Machiavelli, a one-time poster to this very forum. The real way to guarantee a full-on verbal offensive from Machiavelli is to accuse Mignini of once advancing a Satanic Rite theory of this crime.

Although this was never a theory which made it to trial (I learned that the hard way!), there are two curious confirmations of this. Both come from Mignini's side of the fence which make it all the more curious.

Barbie Nadeau. The one person who's been able to monetize this crime more than any other, is The Daily Beast writer Barbie Nadeau. In her slut-fest book "Student Killer", Barbie's thesis is that Perugia is a cesspool of sin, drugs and sex-threesomes waiting for some immature soon-to-be student killer to descend from the protections of Seattle into the libertine atmosphere of this college town.

And what is one of Nadeau's claims in this book? That Manuela Comodi, Mignini's co-prosecutor, threatened to quit the case if Mignini went to trial with the Satanic ritual theory. Thus the ritualistic killing associated with Hallowe'en was born, and that morphed into a sex-game gone wrong theory by trial's end.

And the second curious source: John Kercher, Snr., in his book about Meredith claimed much the same thing.

I really wish I could believe you carbonjam71..... er, 72, er.... whatever your numeral is.....

There's a conspiratorial line in here somewhere (for us conspiracy lovers) that what's happened since the Hellmann acquittals is PMs rallying around Mignini, if only to protect the system FROM Mignini.... but it first requires convictions for Knox and Sollecito so that everything can really be swept under the rug.

It's a good thing that Mignini has behaved himself since and not done anything which suggests that you might be right, carbonjam72.....

​

 

[Bill Williams]

I think this kind of delusional rant is nearly clinical, frankly. No reasonable person would hold such ideas about a grand conspiracy - and anyone that did would be ushered towards the nearest psychiatric clinic. It would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. OK I can understand that some people need conspiratorial thrills to enliven their otherwise mundane lives, but this is at the insane end of the spectrum. God save us.

The trouble with all of this above is that it puts so much into context, and explains what is otherwise inexplicable.

SuperCal.... if what carbonjam72 is saying is simply bunk..... how do YOU explain a court accepting that women have Y-Haplotypes?

How do you explain that even Mignini himself said that his own troubles started with the Narducci case?

I'd love to hear your accounting for the connections between the Narducci case and where the Kercher prosecutions went so off the rails.....

And finally, carbonjam72 is not alone. Many within Italy's judiciary itself see the Kercher murder trials and the inanities the judges have inflicted upon their country to be the result of a judicial war, where the "party of the PMs" is clinging to their privileged spot....

Carbonjam72 is on to something..... I don't go with a full on conspiracy, but.... there's enough smoke here to suspect there might be a fire somewhere.

Have you read Preston's book?

 

[Desert Fox]

The trouble with all of this above is that it puts so much into context, and explains what is otherwise inexplicable.

SuperCal.... if what carbonjam72 is saying is simply bunk..... how do YOU explain a court accepting that women have Y-Haplotypes?

How do you explain that even Mignini himself said that his own troubles started with the Narducci case?

I'd love to hear your accounting for the connections between the Narducci case and where the Kercher prosecutions went so off the rails.....

And finally, carbonjam72 is not alone. Many within Italy's judiciary itself see the Kercher murder trials and the inanities the judges have inflicted upon their country to be the result of a judicial war, where the "party of the PMs" is clinging to their privileged spot....

Carbonjam72 is on to something..... I don't go with a full on conspiracy, but.... there's enough smoke here to suspect there might be a fire somewhere.

Have you read Preston's book?

really, I think the conspiracy can be blamed by various officials in various places not wanting to blame others in their organization.

Almost exactly the same reason why police officers can often get away with some pretty extreme corruption. The other cops protect them.

I don't really see much of a grand conspiracy but more an unwillingness for enough people to stand up and yell "Enough"

 

[acbytesla]

Yes. Let's be absolutely clear here: when a woman teams up with a male partner to kill, it's pretty much certain to be the case that the two will have been in a complex, psychologically-intertwined relationship for months if not years. They will have had to build up huge trust in each other, and usually one partner (usually the male) will have carefully established psychological control (and dependence) over the other. They will have tested each other's boundaries repeatedly prior to embarking on murder.

But it's also perfectly fair to say that precedent of this sort is of little matter. Even though precedent suggests it's highly unlikely, it's still possible (in theory) that Knox and Sollecito trusted each other - and Guede - enough to embark on this murderous orgy. In my view, the comparative extreme rarity of this sort of crime should be of very little value in assessing Knox's and Sollecito's guilt.

Rather, pretty much the entire assessment of their guilt should be based upon the actual evidence: does an analysis of all the available evidence (and lack of evidence) prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they participated in the murder? And it's absolutely clear to me that this standard of proof is not met. And more than that, it's clear to me that there is in fact zero credible, reliable evidence that can only point to Knox's/Sollecito's participation (i.e. which also cannot be reasonably explained in the context of their innocence).

Possible yes, as in Giselle Bundchen dropping Tom Brady for me. Sometimes the extremely rare thing happens. But then again the evidence would actually point to that rare thing happening.

In contrast burglary rape is a relatively common occurrence. Approximately 3.7 million burglaries happen each year in the US. Out of that, about 1 million of those burglaries happened when someone was home and out of that million about 26.5% percent of the time that percent became the victim of a violent crime. (266,560). About 2.7 percent of that figure became victims of sexual assault. So more than 7000 sexual assaults each year happen as the result of a burglary. Burglary homicide in fact is rare but nothing in comparison to the rarity of this scenario. There are about 430 burglary homicides each year out of the the about 40,000 homicides total each year.

Unfortunately, the stats don't seem to drill down to the number of these murders where a rape occurred.

 

[xinonix]

The knife could be used as evidence by the defence.
If you were Mignini and your psychic friend figured out how to break a wish bone and get any evidence you wished for, a knife with MK's DNA on the blade, and AK's DNA on the handle would be near the top of the list, right?
While I would feel rather sqeamish about cutting food with the same knife I used to kill people, so I would destroy such a piece of evidence, or I would at least clean it so much that there would nothing left but steel and plastic, no DNA!
Therefore the defence could claim that this knife was found in Raffael's kitchen, and when AK's DNA was found on the handle, a small sample of MK's DNA was put on the blade.

 

[Desert Fox]

Possible yes, as in Giselle Bundchen dropping Tom Brady for me. Sometimes the extremely rare thing happens. But then again the evidence would actually point to that rare thing happening.

In contrast burglary rape is a relatively common occurrence. Approximately 3.7 million burglaries happen each year in the US. Out of that, about 1 million of those burglaries happened when someone was home and out of that million about 26.5% percent of the time that percent became the victim of a violent crime. (266,560). About 2.7 percent of that figure became victims of sexual assault. So more than 7000 sexual assaults each year happen as the result of a burglary. Burglary homicide in fact is rare but nothing in comparison to the rarity of this scenario. There are about 430 burglary homicides each year out of the the about 40,000 homicides total each year.

Unfortunately, the stats don't seem to drill down to the number of these murders where a rape occurred.

If the evidence pointed to Amanda, Rafaele, and Rudy raping and murdering Meredeth together, it would not matter.

The problem is why would you even go there first? First though would be something reasonably common such as single perpetrator rape. They seem to have gone first to the bizarre theory however.

 

[acbytesla]

If the evidence pointed to Amanda, Rafaele, and Rudy raping and murdering Meredeth together, it would not matter.

The problem is why would you even go there first? First though would be something reasonably common such as single perpetrator rape. They seem to have gone first to the bizarre theory however.

Here is the problem as I see it DF. I can understand the police investigating male acquaintances. Date rape is significantly more common than stranger rape. They took one look at that wall and thought "impossible". Mostly because they were nonathletic women or fat old men. Then they saw how little was missing. The scene seemed bizarre to them. Still the idea that multiple assailants were involved is a huge leap. And to think that a female roommate had conspired with a couple of males to rape a roommate is an Evel Knieval Snake Canyon type of leap.

Amanda was odd to their eyes and maybe she is odd. So am I. That doesn't make her a killer, or violent. But they zeroed in on Amanda even though their the idea was truly absurd. The biggest problem in my mind was the press conference. As soon as they held that, there was no turning back. Amanda was going down. Otherwise they would look like the idiots that they are.

 

[Desert Fox]

Here is the problem as I see it DF. I can understand the police investigating male acquaintances. Date rape is significantly more common than stranger rape. They took one look at that wall and thought "impossible". Mostly because they were nonathletic women or fat old men. Then they saw how little was missing. The scene seemed bizarre to them. Still the idea that multiple assailants were involved is a huge leap. And to think that a female roommate had conspired with a couple of males to rape a roommate is an Evel Knieval Snake Canyon type of leap.

Amanda was odd to their eyes and maybe she is odd. So am I. That doesn't make her a killer, or violent. But they zeroed in on Amanda even though their the idea was truly absurd. The biggest problem in my mind was the press conference. As soon as they held that, there was no turning back. Amanda was going down. Otherwise they would look like the idiots that they are.

Why I argue for little "c" conspiracy not big "C" conspiracy.