God right by virtue of being the creator ?

[punshhh]

...what ? Where do you get these "pictures" ? How do you consistently misunderstand what people post like this ? This has nothing to do with what I posted.

Aaahh so.

The answer to the OP is that it is a historical legacy of the christo-Judaic religions. Plato refers to God as the good, the archetypal Good I presume.

Ah, finally ! A very interesting question. I, for one, would be very interested to find out that computers have religious beliefs where humans are their creator gods, and they have to do whatever we ask of them, and that's why our PCs never rebel.

You do realise that for this to occur computers, or AI, would need to be sentient do you not? Such an eventuality is an groundless assumption.

As for obligations, if we found out they are indeed sentient, I think we do towards them, and not the reverse, until some sort of actual working relationship is established. Sort of a civil rights movement.

Aah, obligations to beings in the universe one creates. Sounds familiar.

 

[MontagK505]

Could we base our speculations and conclusions NOT on fiction works, please ?

Ah, finally ! A very interesting question. I, for one, would be very interested to find out that computers have religious beliefs where humans are their creator gods, and they have to do whatever we ask of them, and that's why our PCs never rebel.

I would suggest this entire thread is based on speculative fiction, including what some might regard as an "interesting question". Any thread involving God, AI's, self-aware robots, and the ethics of our relationships with such, would be "speculative fiction" by definition.

 

[Denver]

I'm curious about why some theists (many, in fact) believe that god's laws are just and good by simple virtue of being written by god, presumably because, as the creator of the universe, god knows best, or at least, being powerful enough to kill anyone who disagrees, should be obeyed.

Why is that ? I happen to think that might doesn't make right, and that creating a world, or a life, doesn't make one its master. I don't get that way of thinking, and I'd like some insight on that.

Thank you in advance.

Interesting little trivia is that in Milton's Paradise Lost, this is a part of Satan's pitch to the angels in heaven to get them to rebel.

 

[MontagK505]

Isn't that what I just said ? Do you make random posts in answer to mine every opportunity you get ?

I lay awake nights thinking of ways to annoy you.

 

[MontagK505]

Interesting little trivia is that in Milton's Paradise Lost, this is a part of Satan's pitch to the angels in heaven to get them to rebel.

"I'm an Angel and I still have to kiss this autocratic dude's behind?" Wouldn't you rebel?

 

[I Ratant]

That is correct—but that is not reducing the amount of crime that is being committed—all that is happening is that the prisons are overflowing. The purpose of the Kingdom is to eliminate crime by dealing correctly with perpetrators.

If you keep astride with world news you will find that there is an increase not a decrease in crime.

.
That is most likely due to the lack of a good family to give a kid a proper grounding in behavior as it grows up.
.

What I am saying is that when God is in control there will be a drastic reduction in violence—at the moment he is not in control!

.
We see that today in the Middle East. The god-supported violence is almost unimaginable! **** can that sucker!

 

[RoboTimbo]

What I am saying is that when God is in control there will be a drastic reduction in violence—at the moment he is not in control!

Why not another fictional character - like Superman? Superman's morals are clearly superior to most of the other fictional gods, like the Christian god. Would you really want a murderous thug like that in charge of real people?

 

[Humots]

I'm curious about why some theists (many, in fact) believe that god's laws are just and good by simple virtue of being written by god, presumably because, as the creator of the universe, god knows best, or at least, being powerful enough to kill anyone who disagrees, should be obeyed.

Why is that ? I happen to think that might doesn't make right, and that creating a world, or a life, doesn't make one its master. I don't get that way of thinking, and I'd like some insight on that.

Thank you in advance.

Interesting little trivia is that in Milton's Paradise Lost, this is a part of Satan's pitch to the angels in heaven to get them to rebel.

I'm curious. Which part exactly, "just and good by simple virtue of being written by god" or "should be obeyed"?

 

[Denver]

I'm curious. Which part exactly, "just and good by simple virtue of being written by god" or "should be obeyed"?

Seems to be a bit of both. The arguments there encompass the assumed rightness of what they are being given as edicts, and how they should instead use their own minds and freedom to decide on their own. But also the assumed power behind those edicts, and that they should try and test that by their own power, so as "to begirt the almighty throne beseeching or besieging".

I am only half way through the book and ran across this argument near the end of Book V. There were more speeches near the beginning of the book I don't recall right now. So we'll see what else comes up later.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Well as I said—all we know about God the God of Israel is what man has written, so can we know for sure if this is a true account—my response is that that I am sure that what is written is a true account of what this God wants us to know about him.

Cart before the horse. Before anythinga bout 'god's' "righteousness", or "rightness", or "immorality", can be argued with any sense, it must first be established about 'god' that it does, in fact, exist; since it has never been demonstrated that it does, arguing whether it is 'good', or 'right', or "incompetent" is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin fanfic.

Demonstrate that 'god' exists--then you can argue whether the bible is a credible authority as to its characteristics.

Firstly his laws are not complicated—firstly he wants all people to be truthful—that is that no one lies to another, that is not difficult, because most injustices’ result from a lie.

And yet, if (arguendo, and only arguendo), the bible is, in fact, an accurate record of 'god's' characteristics, it is recorded as lying to us--the bible records false histories and false science. If it wanted us to be truthful, shouldn't it have been truthful to us?

"Go where I'm pointing, not where I'm standing" is a vile way to demonstrate morality.

So it is reasonable to conclude that Yahweh the God who is the Creator should destroy those who lie as the Scriptures record! ►Psalms 5:6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.

And again

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.”

Because you already believe, it seems reasonable to you to believe this. A reasonable person, on the other hand, would expect a 'god' that demanded honesty of its creatures to keep its own stories straight.

Do not steal. Do not commit adultery. Do not covet. If all people followed these simple principals the world would be a much better place for all!

Funny that you think you need a 'god' to tell you not to do these things...

Then of course—do not murder.

Except, of course, when it is claimed that 'god' ordered the murder (even genocide) as part of its will...(see dishonesty/lying, above).

It is the neglect of these simple laws that all the problems in the world are present.
So why should God not enforce these laws?

If 'god' "enforced its laws, you might (stress might) have a point. Instead, we see people selectively imposing some of what are called 'god's' "laws" on other people. Why does not 'god' do its own dirty work?

So from the Scriptures it is understood that a time will come when Yahweh will enforce these laws when his Kingdom comes!

Because you already believe, it seems to make sense (to you) to believe this...

 

[Paul Bethke]

Why not another fictional character - like Superman? Superman's morals are clearly superior to most of the other fictional gods, like the Christian god. Would you really want a murderous thug like that in charge of real people?

You clearly have the wrong information about Yahweh----for from the Scriptures it is clear that he is a person who advocates justice----besides people will have no option but to accept his rule.

I will admit that man has not always followed the laws given, but regardless there is enough truth retained to understand the plan God has for humanity.

 

[Paul Bethke]

.
That is most likely due to the lack of a good family to give a kid a proper grounding in behavior as it grows up.
We see that today in the Middle East. The god-supported violence is almost unimaginable! **** can that sucker!

This is what I said—breaking the simple commands that are given will have a detrimental effect on the family unit.

The entire purpose of creation is to advance this family unity---the main reason for judgement is against all that destroys the family.

 

[Slowvehicle]

You clearly have the wrong information about Yahweh----for from the Scriptures it is clear that he is a person who advocates justice----besides people will have no option but to accept his rule.

From your posting it is clear that you have never read "the scriptures".

I will admit that man has not always followed the laws given, but regardless there is enough truth retained to understand the plan God has for humanity.

Funny how your 'god' is supposed to be "the" 'god'...

Many moral, ethical, law-abiding humans clearly disagree.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Cart before the horse. Before anythinga bout 'god's' "righteousness", or "rightness", or "immorality", can be argued with any sense, it must first be established about 'god' that it does, in fact, exist; since it has never been demonstrated that it does, arguing whether it is 'good', or 'right', or "incompetent" is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin fanfic.

Demonstrate that 'god' exists--then you can argue whether the bible is a credible authority as to its characteristics.

You are correct, and this is the point of every argument—evidence of the existence of the true God.

And yet, if (arguendo, and only arguendo), the bible is, in fact, an accurate record of 'god's' characteristics, it is recorded as lying to us--the bible records false histories and false science. If it wanted us to be truthful, shouldn't it have been truthful to us?

Not all of us see the Bible as you describe—once you see the true character of God you can understand his actions against humanity---history is evidence of man’s cruelty to his fellow man—justice is the way Yahweh will bring about peace.

"Go where I'm pointing, not where I'm standing" is a vile way to demonstrate morality.
Because you already believe, it seems reasonable to you to believe this. A reasonable person, on the other hand, would expect a 'god' that demanded honesty of its creatures to keep its own stories straight.

Well again that is the way you see it—but that is not true—there are some discrepancies and inaccuracies, but these can be explained—yet overall the record of what God wants us to know about him is complete for those who understand.

Because you already believe, it seems to make sense (to you) to believe this...

I believe because as you say it makes perfect sense—there is no other logical way to see that what God is going to do is the best way.

 

[MontagK505]

You clearly have the wrong information about Yahweh----for from the Scriptures it is clear that he is a person who advocates justice----besides people will have no option but to accept his rule.

I will admit that man has not always followed the laws given, but regardless there is enough truth retained to understand the plan God has for humanity.

I may have missed something, but I don't think the thread is about Yahweh specifically. The question seems to be, do we regard God as right simply because he/she/it created everything? The FSM seems to be a very easy going God, but does that make it right?

 

[Paul Bethke]

From your posting it is clear that you have never read "the scriptures".
Funny how your 'god' is supposed to be "the" 'god'...
Many moral, ethical, law-abiding humans clearly disagree.

You are wrong—I have not only read the Scriptures, but studied them very carefully—I have considered all the objections, and am still convinced that there is ample reason for accepting the records as accurate.

I wish what you state was true—for every person that has lied has lost their morality.

 

[MontagK505]

Why not another fictional character - like Superman? Superman's morals are clearly superior to most of the other fictional gods, like the Christian god. Would you really want a murderous thug like that in charge of real people?

What makes Superman superior is he really doesn't want to be Supreme Ruler. He just helps out now and then. Most Gods seem to be morally corrupted by their own power.

 

[RoboTimbo]

You clearly have the wrong information about Yahweh----for from the Scriptures it is clear that he is a person who advocates justice

Remember what you said about lying. No, it is clear from the Christian bible that the god of the bible is a monster who all right thinking people should seek to destroy if it existed. We are fortunate that it doesn't exist. You wouldn't want actual humans to submit to the whims of such a lying, murdering, conniving, despicable piece of garbage, would you?

----besides people will have no option but to accept his rule.

Why do you think that? No gods have ever done anything since they clearly don't exist. Are you threatening to enforce your own interpretation of your odd religion on real people?

You will have no option but to submit to the rule of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. How does that sound to you?

I will admit that man has not always followed the laws given, but regardless there is enough truth retained to understand the plan God has for humanity.

No, that's just religious silliness. Your religion's laws are despicable and vile and must be fought at every turn. I refuse to murder my neighbor for picking up sticks on the "sabbath" and I won't stone my daughter to death for having sex out of wedlock nor will I own slaves just for the purpose of beating them according to the rules Jesus gave us.

Why do you think that real humans should embrace such hateful and immoral laws? Do you think we should murder false prophets (by which I mean all of them)?

 

[Paul Bethke]

I may have missed something, but I don't think the thread is about Yahweh specifically. The question seems to be, do we regard God as right simply because he/she/it created everything? The FSM seems to be a very easy going God, but does that make it right?

I know of no other God than Yahweh, so it stands to reason that I must refer to him as Creator—and as such he surely has the right to dictate how creation should conduct themselves, and furthermore withhold his judgement until an appropriate time.

 

[Slowvehicle]

You are correct, and this is the point of every argument—evidence of the existence of the true God.

Finally! Does your admission mean that you are about to uncork a suite of practical, empirical, concreted, non-anecdotal, testable, objective evidence for the existence of any 'god' at all, much less for the vengeful, praise-thirsty, murderous, inconsistent, trick-pulling, tantrum-throwing spoiled brat of the xian old testament?

Hasn't been done, yet--will you be the one to step up?

Not all of us see the Bible as you describe—once you see the true character of God you can understand his actions against humanity---history is evidence of man’s cruelty to his fellow man—justice is the way Yahweh will bring about peace.

Right. 'god's' bloodthirstiness is condign bloodthirstiness. 'god's' hatred is condign hatred. Good thing it doesn't exist...

Well again that is the way you see it—but that is not true—there are some discrepancies and inaccuracies, but these can be explained—yet overall the record of what God wants us to know about him is complete for those who understand.

If you choose to believe, the bible is believable.

OTH, if read with an open mind, the bible is an inconsistently-edited, sectarially-redacted, contentiously-canonized collection of after-the-(supposed)-fact rationalizations of tribal superstitions. You are, of course, welcome to it. You are even welcome to believe that the unoriginally-borrowed cow-"deity" described therein owns you and is due your fearful worship. Have fun with that.

Fortunately, you and yours are prohibited by law from enforcing your particular flavour of the 'god'-madness upon , or against, the rest of us, at least in the United States of America.

I believe because as you say it makes perfect sense...

...to you, because you believe...do you know what circular reasoning is? Do you know what special pleading is?

Were there a 'god', why should it be so very bad at convincing its creatures of its existence? Is it because it is looking forward to eternally punishing those who will not let it "save" them from what it will do to them if they will not let it "save" them?

—there is no other logical way to see that what God is going to do is the best way.

If it existed, you might have a point about considering its motives, or its methods...