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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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does his own dataset, the UAH dataset in the past 15 years show warming or not?
Did Christy say "As the global temperature failed to warm over the past 15 years"?

his very own data contradicts his claim.
got any comment on this?

Well...did Christy say "...global temperature failed to warm over the past 15 years"?"

Does Christy's data set contradict his claim?

Have I got anything to say about it?

What is the price of Tea in the suburbs of Shanghai?

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if the woodchuck were gay?

What does the color purple sound like?

Will staring at a picture of the sun hurt your eyes?
 
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Well...did Christy say "...global temperature failed to warm over the past 15 years"?"

Does Christy's data set contradict his claim?

Have I got anything to say about it?

What is the price of Tea in the suburbs of Shanghai?

as expected, you run when you got your myths debunked.
why are you scared to answer my questions?
because you perfectly know that Christy in fact did lie........
very telling.
you just admited you don't care for the truth.
 
I think your are all Butthurt ....
I think that you need to learn what science is, Jules Galen :jaw-dropp!
It is not one persons posts on the web.
It is not links to unexplained images on the web.
It is not one persons misleading testimony to Congress: Christy Once Again Misinforms Congress (explaining his bad testimony)
Christy's testimony is broken into five distinct climate myths:

1) Disputing the accuracy of the surface temperature record;

2) Exaggerating the discrepancy between modeled and observed global warming;

3) Denying the consensus on human-caused global warming;

4) Cheerleading fossil fuels as the best thing since sliced bread; and

5) Denying that climate change is linked to extreme weather.

We will address the first four myths in this post, while a separate post is devoted to the extreme weather denial of Christy and Co.
It is not public opinion.
It is not even writing stuff in big text :(!
It is what is published in the scientific literature that the IPCC Assessment Reports are based on.
 
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A model cannot fail. It is a model, not an record of data. This is just a childish tantrum as your last post demonstrated so clearly.
Move on, you're wrong and the rest of the planet is ignoring your nonsense denying AGW.

Exxon even caved...got an explanation for that.?

Does CO2 trap IR?

Unless you can overturn that simple bit of physics you have no case in science against AGW.
Theory and observation all confirm it.
The world is ignoring your histrionics......despite your penchant for large type
 
As a result, I am confident John Christy was on his best behavoir when he spoke to congress.
John Christy did not lie to Congress but he got really, really close to it, Jules Galen!
Christy Once Again Misinforms Congress
* Misinforming Congress with Watts' Flawed Unpublished Paper
Why mention an unpublished paper at all?
Why ignore the published scientific literature on the topic?
Why not mention the flaws that have been found in it, e.g. the basic mistake of not homogenizing data?
Maybe it is because he is an author of that paper :D.
* Christy Exaggerates the Model-Data Discrepancy
Christy is correct to note that the model average warming trend (0.23°C/decade for 1978-2011) is a bit higher than observations (0.17°C/decade over the same timeframe), but that is because over the past decade virtually every natural influence on global temperatures has acted in the cooling direction (i.e. an extended solar minimum, rising aerosols emissions, and increased heat storage in the deep oceans). We're in the midst of a 'hiatus decade', but as Christy's own figure shows, the observed warming is nevertheless consistent with the envelope of model runs, because climate models expect hiatus decades to sometimes occur.
* Denying the Consensus (with a bit of conspiracy theory thrown in!)
* Fossil Fuel Energy and Economics Myths
Strangely, Christy concluded both his written and verbal testimony talking about fossil fuel energy and economics rather than climate science - subjects well outside of his area of expertise. Christy began with the misleading argument that CO2 is plant food, which is a gross oversimplification of a complex issue, and which is frankly an insult to the intelligence of his audience.
He then smoothly transitioned from this oversimplified argument to the myth that CO2 limits will hurt the poor because, he argued, fossil fuel energy is cheap. In reality, when all costs are taken into consideration, many renewable energy sources are significantly cheaper than fossil fuels. Ironically, Christy cites concerns about the wellbeing of people in Africa, who are the most vulnerable to the impacts of the climate change his testimony seeks to accelerate.
 
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I think your are all Butthurt because I've shown just how badly the Climate Models have failed to accurately predict Global Temperature and it's getting worse! According to John Christy's (University of Alabama - Huntsville) presentation given to the US Congress, Not only are the models bad, they don't even agree the basic mechanisms that are driving climate! His testimony to congress is presented here along with a chart of the failed model runs: http://docs.house.gov/meetings/SY/SY18/20131211/101589/HHRG-113-SY18-Wstate-ChristyJ-20131211.pdf

I urge people to read this testimony and to remember that it was given before Congress: an entity to whom Lying or BS'ing is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE! But, whether you elect to read it or not, I think you can rest assured that Congress is getting the true story on AGW and Climate Change and, as a result, won't pass any stupid laws on the basis on the flawed Science of Climate Modeling.

Also, Americans remain a practical people in some respects and have properly rated their concern about "Global Warming" pretty far down the list....well below "Air Pollution", Drinking-water Pollution and Toxic Waste (http://www.gallup.com/poll/168236/americans-show-low-levels-concern-global-warming.aspx) So....it doesn't look like Americans are going to be fooled by the AGW Hysterics.


Again, poppycock, Jules Galen. As expected you can't answer for any of the concoctions you borrow via Google, so you have turn to a narcissistic "I've shown just how badly the Climate Models have failed to accurately predict Global Temperature and it's getting worse!". Clearly defeated in your purpose, you declare victory. So reality is not your strength, isn't it?

Of course, new cow manure replaces what it failed before. Your new link, increasingly larger in order to extend the time consumed by us reading low quality resources, includes a new figure from it, which r-j was nice enough to link, because he has a knack detecting this kind of things

picture.php


In that image, supposedly models are compared with real sets of data. Well, to start with, a giant label says 102 rcp4.5 model runs in 24 groups. Do you know what rcp4.5 is, little grasshopper? A supposed scenario for future estimations, not what indeed happened in that period. To use modern models and run them from some day in 1977 on, you need a reasonable set of initial conditions for that date matching what each specific model needs, and the ability to provide an emission path. If you study the past you use the factual emission path, not a scenario to analyse the future. This at least show an inability from this person and his aids to deal with the models directly.

On the other hand, Jules Galen, I congratulate you for having a time machine and having here discussion from 1988 or 1993. This mid tropospheric temperatures (500hpa level, typically) are typically between 0°C and -50°C. Let say in the tropical regions are -5°C as an average. Slightly different content of water vapour in different layers and inaccuracies to deal with cold air incursions in each hemispherical winter cause differences of 1°C that are really of little importance, when a tenth of it would be important at the surface. This is a factor modelling didn't place their strongest attention because the effect is negligible to the model itself and accent must be placed elsewhere. If you have models with a north pole island or a resolution of 15' of arc in 32 levels, it really doesn't matter if you get 0°C at 4500m or at 4800m up the surface and that is basically the exploit your Alabamian chap is making.

You'll be glad to know that the most reliable models show in that graphic the largest apparent "error". Interesting to know how those models can give a jump of 1.2°C for that level in just 15 years when they give less than 2°C on the surface by the end of this century. I have to say, you need at least 140 Tby or memory just to hold state while running those models, if you use the actual open source. That is what tells me this chap took random runs from different sources for a worse than reality scenario -but not much worse because it'd show-, and make all pass by 0 in 1979, so he can have a nice Frankenstein of a graphic. For instance, these reliable models I mentioned reasonably follow the real values until 1993 or 1995, when they become a bit crazy and go up rapidly. This suggests the chap got some runs from early stages of those models during those years and implanted them in the figure, hence the Frankenstein. One of those models being referred as a cmip3 and not 5, and the other one lacking a final M confirm the age of the runs and the vintage versions of the model used -I could run those versions in my old notebook easily today, no Tby needed-. On the contrary, an Australian model that is weaker to deal with this problem shows relative low values because the version used make me think of a 2005 run in an older version.

Don't even ask for the 5-year averages.

So, induced inference, pull a lot of thing together in a fashion that induce the wished conclusion. A lie it is, but it wouldn't lead to a charge of perjury even when said under oath in a trial. So much for your trustworthy scientist and congress.
 
..snipped irrelevant rant...
Is the inability to reply to the questions an admission that you cannot answer DC questions, Jules Galen?
does his own dataset, the UAH dataset in the past 15 years show warming or not?
Did Christy say "As the global temperature failed to warm over the past 15 years"?

his very own data contradicts his claim.
got any comment on this?
Better make that: got any relevant, coherent comment on this, Jules Galen :D?
 
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Yet, Jules Galen, you have failed miserably to answer even one single question about your now three concocted figures dropped here. Your posts are rhetoric. No science in them.

You assert that something has been done -like disproving AGW by disproving climate models- in a pompous way and then you congratulate yourself in having done that, what boils down to you asking everybody to eat yours and call it caviar.
 
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You assert that something has been done -like disproving AGW by disproving climate models- in a pompous way that boils down to you asking everybody to eat your **** and call it caviar.


You really don't get it...do you?

See...I can not disprove AGW - no one can!

Also...I can not prove AGW - no one can!

There is just not enough knowledge to know either way and this is proved time and time again by the failure of the models. And in a way, that's the value of the models at this stage: they hint about things we just don't know. But, to say they have value as a predictor of Global warming....yeah, right!

And, as far as the Hypothesis of AGW is concerned, it's just not knowable. In fact, it's so lacking in Scientific Rigor that "...it's not even wrong!" as the famous Physicist Wolfgang Pauli might say. Like I said, you just can't say either way.
 

You really don't get it...do you?

See...I can not disprove AGW - no one can!

Also...I can not prove AGW - no one can!

There is just not enough knowledge to know either way and this is proved time and time again by the failure of the models. And in a way, that's the value of the models at this stage: they hint about things we just don't know. But, to say they have value as a predictor of Global warming....yeah, right!

And, as far as the Hypothesis of AGW is concerned, it's just not knowable. In fact, it's so lacking in Scientific Rigor that "...it's not even wrong!" as the famous Physicist Wolfgang Pauli might say. Like I said, you just can't say either way.

You don't get it. You can't disprove what is proved. It's much simpler.

What you do is not new here or there. You are trying to shape this into "you can't prove God exists/you can't prove God doesn't exist", which is OK with entities either imaginary or spiritual. Your meme is turning imaginary into not enough proof.

The physical world doesn't work that way. But you'd hardly understand a matter of science: You even thought that models had to do with proving or disproving AGW. You basically are a 0 in epistemology yet you try to convince you can set the level of proof.
 
You don't get it. You can't disprove what is proved. It's much simpler.

What you do is not new here or there. You are trying to shape this into "you can't prove God exists/you can't prove God doesn't exist", which is OK with entities either imaginary or spiritual. Your meme is turning imaginary into not enough proof.

The physical world doesn't work that way. But you'd hardly understand a matter of science: You even thought that models had to do with proving or disproving AGW. You basically are a 0 in epistemology yet you try to convince you can set the level of proof.

No. Not at all.

I am not saying that we can't know eventually, I am saying that we can't know now, and that it may be a few decades before we do know.

Thus, this is not a Philosophical argument, it is a Scientific one.

Anyways...here's what I'd like someone to show me. Please show me some model runs from 20 or more years ago (that have not been adjusted for current events - or adjusted for anything else) and that accurately predict the current temperatures. I'd really like to see this.
 
This is not a claim supportable by the data. There is no statistically significant evidence for any end to the warming trend.

I wasn't implying in any way...I was making a joke.

Anyways...I agree that there is no significant statistical evidence implying a halt to the warming trend.
 
See...I can not disprove AGW - no one can!


It's difficult to disprove things that are true...

Also...I can not prove AGW - no one can!

Science isn't religion, it doesn't prove things true at all. What we expect from science is preponderance of evidence, and the evidence is very very heavily in favor of humans causing significant global warming.


In fact, it's so lacking in Scientific Rigor that

Why does nearly 100% the peer review literature say global warming is real? Why are you the only one here resorting to random internet comments that lack the rigor to make it into the literature...

I also find it somewhat humorous that you started off claiming some sort of religious basis to global warming and your 2 "star witnesses" thus far have been a Creationist (Chrisy) and an Intelligent Design proponent (Spencer).
 
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You do not get it, Jules Galen: No one is asking you to prove or disprove AGW for the simple reason that nothing is proven or disproven in science :jaw-dropp!

The is enough knowledge to know either way though (unless someone is a die-hard, head in the sand, climate change denier). The overwhelming evidence is that AGW is happening. It is so overwhelming that 97% of climate scientists believe that AGW is happening.

Unsupported assertions do not belong in a thread about science:
Please support this assertion with citations to the failure of "these models", Jules Galen.
(the scientific literature or a credible source citing the scientific literature)
 
Thus, this is not a Philosophical argument, it is a Scientific one.
Then supply the Scientific argument rather than screaming in big text, Jules Galen.

Anyways, do not expose an ignorance of science by demanding the impossible. No one knew 20 years ago about the conditions that have lead to the decrease in warming over the last decade or so. So it is rather dumb to demand that models produce what they did not know about. It is similar to demanding that they know about a big volcanic eruption like the one in Indonesia.

What the model runs do is include a variety of projected conditions such as CO2 emissions, volcanic eruptions, etc. That word projected is what the ensemble of runs is called a projection. What they can do is project a variety of outcomes that "accurately" include the current temperatures.
 
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It's difficult to disprove things that are true...

Science isn't religion, it doesn't prove things true at all. What we expect from science is preponderance of evidence, and the evidence is very very heavily in favor of humans causing significant global warming.

"Preponderance of Evidence"? Do you really know what that means? Have you ever looked up the term?

No...seriously (I think). Why don't you have a read about the "Preponderance of Evidence" and think again what it means to science.

Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof#Preponderance_of_the_evidence

Seriously...how old are you? Am I talking to a kid?

I'm damned sure not talking to a Scientist...or anything close.
 
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