Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

I bet your mother was peeved at having pi scratched all over her table! Lol. Thank you for your understanding. I feel less like a loon than before. I await your own scratchings anon.

All this talk about pi makes me think about kung foo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMcPGtuCYQM

 

[Bill Williams]

A retired senior trial counsel for the U.S. Department of Justice, Michael Scadron, has just written a Ground Report article......

..... detailing how the Italian Supreme Court directed the Florence Appeals court to reverse the burden of proof for the defendants in front of it.

Given that the onus at trial was for the defence to prove its innocence, it makes it all the more telling that only one of the 2 dozen defence requests for new testing was denied by Nencini.

But don't worry. Stilicho has a list of lies and platonov has a litany of ad hominem. Peter Q. Has 100s of lawyers and Michael of the real PMF has the bleach receipts.

And Peggy of the fake PMF continues to be, oh so "Peggy".

 

[Grinder]

Figure in 99% of cases involving DNA, the evidence is properly extracted and I have been looking at a number of cases where they ask if the individual who left a DNA sample had a valid reason. Some jurisdictions are more cautious than others. Full disclosure and ability to retest the sames seem to be the best recourse.

Still, I have to wonder if older DNA testing may have been safer in some cases, when they didn't have the technology to multiply the DNA sample. When you have a significant DNA semen sample, I think it is pretty safe.

There is starting to be some use of trickery with DNA by criminals as well. The Yellowstone murder actually paid a kid to spit in a cup and used it to seal an envelope.

I don't think we should give up on DNA evidence, just that it is not a magic wand but is imperfect just like everything else.

Any DNA done that uses samples that aren't identified as some substance such as semen, saliva or blood is problematic. Certainly LCN DNA found in the trunk of a car of a victim that didn't have any contact with the killer would be solid evidence without an explanation of how it could have found its way there.

The crook in Yellowstone was an idiot. Why not use a sponge and water?

 

[Grinder]

Sigh. It's all here.

Brilliant! Seriously a very good analogy.

 

[anglolawyer]

Brilliant! Seriously a very good analogy. [qimg]http://www.emofaces.com/en/emoticons/t/tip-of-the-hat-emoticon.gif[/qimg]

Thank you. It seems to be a deep point judging by the fact that almost nobody gets it, certainly not Leila or Mach or the judges. Do the defence teams? For the scientists it's so much like falling off a log they don't actually comprehend there is anything for us non-nerds to grasp. But there is.

 

[Diocletus]

Thank you. It seems to be a deep point judging by the fact that almost nobody gets it, certainly not Leila or Mach or the judges. Do the defence teams? For the scientists it's so much like falling off a log they don't actually comprehend there is anything for us non-nerds to grasp. But there is.

I have a feeling that Leila is holed up reading Peter Gill's book somewhere, and wishing that she had never written her misguided book about coin-flipping and roped her poor daughter into the ill-conceived venture.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

two selective cleanings?

We see them on video wiping away the prints at markers 2 and 3 in the hall. And on the return in Devember they spend considerable time searching for where the prints had been in the bedroom. But there is no evidence that they even saw the print by the pink bag at the entrance to the hall.

Let us assume a PG-perspective for a moment, and assume that the luminol print next to marker 2 came from blood that was cleaned. Somehow Amanda or Raffaele failed to clean up the shoe print right next to the footprint. And when the FP removed the shoe print, they did not disturb the footprint that would later be revealed with luminol. Thus there were two selective cleanings by marker 2. I don't find this plausible, but does anyone else think it is?

 

[carbonjam72]

Issues with Rudy & Police, framing on Day 1 etc.

Dopre, I agree with you. I have read many comments that the police protected Rudy as an informer and so are responsible for Meredith's murder. Also conspiratorial views that the police recognized from day one that the broken window is Rudy's signature and the police were out to involve Amanda to protect Rudy. I consider such views unfounded by fact, and conspiratorial bunk. Even Steve Moore is promoting some of this, to the detriment of his other solid contributions.

It is possible that Rudy was at some point caught selling hashish or that he was named by others to the police as a dope dealer. Or that he was confronted by police if CT really ID'd him to the police, without waiting in line to file a formal report. It would not be farfetched for the police to confront Rudy and tell him "We know you're selling dope" or "We know you are stealing" and tell Rudy "You owe me" and "I can bust you". That would mean Rudy owes the police information if/when the police come around next. He would be compelled to tell them what he knows when asked about others. It would not mean that the police were giving him a license to be a drug dealer or burglar or to go on a crime spree.

I see no indication that Napoleoni or others recognized the rock as Rudy's MO. To say that the police made the connection between the earlier break-in at the lawyers' office and the sexual murder of a British student is farfetched and not supported by known facts. The overriding appearance to the police was at the murder scene was burglar-entry OR a man against a woman, and the police immediately suspected that the rock was a diversion, not the real mechanism for entry. They were looking for a date gone bad, a date turned sexual-murderer. The police were not covering for who they knew to be "rock-throwing-Rudy".

ETA: I have stated before that it must have been very trying for the police and othes to see the victim and step gingerly around her lifeless body. Given the butchery in the room, i think if Napoleoni or any other detective had put 2and 2 together and recognized the connection of the rock she would within 30 minutes have been kicking in Rudy's door.

Just leaving a quote from this article from Bob Graham, found here:

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/...red-Bob-Graham-Article-for-Mail-on-Sunday.pdf

"They include burglaries, break-ins and robberies and occasions when he carried a knife on his mini crime-wave. On at least one occasion he was named as a suspect who broke into an elderly ␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ to the three-storey property that killed a pet cat and caused more than £30,000 worth of damage.
␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ Guede who burned my home because I had seen him always staring at it in the days before it happened. The police never did anything."

(sorry for the crappy cut/paste, there's some gltichiness going on)

It's a great article, but discusses Guede's history of break-ins, and Mignini discussing the Perugian's police's familiarity with Guede as a burglar, and also Mignini blaming Milan police for letting Guede go free, while the article also has the Milan police saying Guede was released at the request of the Perugians.

I'm a believer in a frame up from Day 1, 2 or at latest day 3, when the police tried to get Amanda to pull out a kitchen knife from the drawer at the cottage that 'may have been used in the murder'.

I don't agree Italians "investigate" in the same way as other police in other countries.

 

[xinonix]

An Amanda Knox crossword puzzle? I need a few questions with 1 word answers, can you guys think of some good ones?

 

[platonov]

Ruminants all the way down.

Sir is a great Victorian form of address. Sir Platonov, I pray you will participate in the game that will sort the sheep from the goats. I am not trying to trump you for obscure turns of phrase.

Sort – Why bother ?

From my vantage point - it's ruminare ruminants all the way down

 

[acbytesla]

I do think it is absurd to believe that in a town as big as Perugia that a rock through a window could be known to be one person's MO and if he was "working" for the police that they would allow him to do burglaries.[

Wow!!! We agree on something. (You must hate me) I too find the conjecture that Rudy was working for the Perugia police as wild conjecture and find it hard to believe that someone who had never been arrested for burglary in Perugia would have a known burglary MO so common as throwing a rock through a window that they would immediately think of Rudy when they heard a rock was thrown through a window.

More than a bit of a run on sentence..but what the hell.

 

[carbonjam72]

I do think it is absurd to believe that in a town as big as Perugia that a rock through a window could be known to be one person's MO and if he was "working" for the police that they would allow him to do burglaries.[/QUOTE]

Wow!!! We agree on something. (You must hate me) I too find the conjecture that Rudy was working for the Perugia police as wild conjecture and find it hard to believe that someone who had never been arrested for burglary in Perugia would have a known burglary MO so common as throwing a rock through a window that they would immediately think of Rudy when they heard a rock was thrown through a window.

More than a bit of a run on sentence..but what the hell.

More from the Graham article:

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/...red-Bob-Graham-Article-for-Mail-on-Sunday.pdf

"Small␣time drug dealer Rudy Guede committed a number of serious crimes that were ignored by Italian authorities and have raised suspicions he was a police informer who was given license to get away with burglaries, armed break-ins and robberies."
If you haven't read it, it's really worth a read. Lots of info on the gold watch (a Grinder favorite), and Rudy's adventures, not getting charged despite other people complaining about him..;

"Italian police were well aware of Guede's role in many of the crimes - he had been identified by other victims. But, on each occasion, he was released without charge."
There are other reasons Mignini would find value in having the murder be a conspiracy. Can go into it, but...

 

[Grinder]

Just leaving a quote from this article from Bob Graham, found here:

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/...red-Bob-Graham-Article-for-Mail-on-Sunday.pdf

An unpublished alleged article found on the PIP/FOA site with no sources or footnotes.

"They include burglaries, break-ins and robberies and occasions when he carried a knife on his mini crime-wave. On at least one occasion he was named as a suspect who broke into an elderly ␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ to the three-storey property that killed a pet cat and caused more than £30,000 worth of damage.
␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ Guede who burned my home because I had seen him always staring at it in the days before it happened. The police never did anything."]/quote]

Dear god, he was "named a suspect" and the "the police never did anything" - who named him a suspect? Was it Diaz or Nina? What BS.

It's a great article, but discusses Guede's history of break-ins, and Mignini discussing the Perugian's police's familiarity with Guede as a burglar, and also Mignini blaming Milan police for letting Guede go free, while the article also has the Milan police saying Guede was released at the request of the Perugians.

I think they cut the part where it was claimed that Rudi could fly. A great article backs up contentions with sources and facts. Do you think that it wasn't run because he couldn't prove much of it and knew he would be sued or charged with a crime?

I'm a believer in a frame up from Day 1, 2 or at latest day 3, when the police tried to get Amanda to pull out a kitchen knife from the drawer at the cottage that 'may have been used in the murder'.

I don't agree Italians "investigate" in the same way as other police in other countries.

It is absurd to claim they were framing from day 1 or 2 or 3. If there was framing it would have started after the arrest and their impending embarrassment.

 

[Planigale]

This statement is predicated only on the word of the powerful and connected public relations campaign engaged by the Knox/Mellas/Sollecito families to spread misinformation and confuse the casual observer. It is featured as #32 on a brand new list of the Top 50 lies produced and disseminated by the anti-Kercher brigade. The list is reprinted here so you can see how substantial it is:

1. Knox was summoned to the Perugia central police station on 5 November 2007.
2. Knox was subjected to an all-night interrogation on 5/6 November.
3. Knox wasn’t provided with an interpreter for her questioning on 5 November 2007.
4. Knox wasn’t given anything to eat or drink.
5. Knox was yelled at and beaten by the police.
6. Knox was refused a lawyer.
7. Knox was tag-teamed by two police officers every hour.
8. Knox was asked to imagine what might have happened.
9. Knox claimed she had had a “dream” or “vision” that she was at the cottage when Meredith was murdered.
10. Amanda Knox was questioned in Italian.
11. Dr Mignini questioned Knox on 5 November 2007.
12. Knox didn’t confess until 6am.
13. Knox retracted her allegation against Lumumba immediately.
14. In the days following Meredith’s murder, Knox voluntarily stayed in Perugia to help the police.
15. All of Meredith’s friends left immediately.
16. There were only two tiny pieces of DNA evidence that implicated her, but they were probably contaminated.
17. The knife has essentially been thrown out.
18. The knife doesn’t match any of the wounds on Meredith’s body.
19. The DNA on the blade could match half the population of Italy.
20. Meredith’s DNA wasn’t found on the blade of the knife.
21. No other knives were taken from Sollecito’s apartment.
22. The knife was chosen at random.
23. No control tests were done.
24. There is no evidence of Amanda Knox at the actual crime scene.
25. None of the Luminol* stains contained Meredith’s DNA.
26. Mignini is persecuting Amanda Knox.
27. Mignini claimed Meredith was killed as part of a satanic ritual.
28. Mignini claimed Meredith was killed in a sex game that went wrong.
29. Mignini called Amanda Knox a “she-devil.”
30. Dr Mignini was convicted of a felony and faced prison.
31. Rudy Guede was a drifter.
32. Guede had a criminal record at the time of the murder.
33. Guede left his DNA all over Meredith and all over the crime scene.
34. Guede left his semen at the crime scene.
35. Guede left his DNA inside Meredith’s bag.
36. Guede left his bloody fingerprints all over the crime scene.
37. Guede left his hair at the crime scene.
38. Guede pleaded guilty or confessed.
39. Guede’s prison sentence was reduced because he made a deal with the prosecutors.
40. Guede didn’t implicate Knox and Sollecito until much later.
41. Amanda Knox didn’t know Rudy Guede.
42. Raffaele Sollecito had never been in trouble with the police.
43. Sollecito had an impeccable track record.
44. Sollecito couldn’t confirm Knox’s alibi because he was sleeping.
45. Amanda Knox had never been in trouble with the police.
46. Amanda Knox was retried for the same crimes.
47. The Italian Supreme Court ruled that Amanda Knox’s interrogation was illegal.
48. The Supreme Court threw out Amanda Knox’s statements.
49. Dr. Stefanoni and the forensic technicians broke international protocols.
50. Amanda Knox is being railroaded or framed.

The full text is available at the TJMK and is even now being tweeted and retweeted to concerned individuals in the media.

At the JREF, we have become accustomed to exploding myths and relying purely on documentation such as the compelling reasoning of Judges Nencini, Micheli, Matteini, and Massei, along with strong scientific support and unbiased judgement. The list above was compiled by one of the most vigorous on-line supporters of victims' rights and all sources are properly attributed.

This document might become a good start for those new to the case who still labour under the illusion that Amanda and Raffaele were not responsible for Meredith Kercher's death.

Sadly if this is the best case for guilt after seven years of contemplation, a list of innuendo, disinformation and out right lies all you have convinced me of is that there is no case. Still I guess you work on the premise that if you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

 

[carbonjam72]

Grinder-thon

An unpublished alleged article found on the PIP/FOA site with no sources or footnotes.

"They include burglaries, break-ins and robberies and occasions when he carried a knife on his mini crime-wave. On at least one occasion he was named as a suspect who broke into an elderly ␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ to the three-storey property that killed a pet cat and caused more than £30,000 worth of damage.
␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣␣ Guede who burned my home because I had seen him always staring at it in the days before it happened. The police never did anything."]/quote]

Dear god, he was "named a suspect" and the "the police never did anything" - who named him a suspect? Was it Diaz or Nina? What BS.



I think they cut the part where it was claimed that Rudi could fly. A great article backs up contentions with sources and facts. Do you think that it wasn't run because he couldn't prove much of it and knew he would be sued or charged with a crime?



It is absurd to claim they were framing from day 1 or 2 or 3. If there was framing it would have started after the arrest and their impending embarrassment.

Guede was named a suspect by the woman whose house was burned down, we may surmise (Grinder permitting) it's Rudy's neighbor (it was her gold watch Rudy was found with in Milan), but she asked not to be named in this article by Graham.

Your assumption is that the framing is in response to the embarrassment of having arrested three wrong people (PL, AK, RS). I disagree. Mignini had troubles and reasons for making it a conspiracy before Guede got pulled into the picture, whether they recognized Guede immediately or not.

So we have two points of disagreement. Did the police recognize Guede's MO at the crime scene on day 1 (I say yes).

And secondly, did Mignini have other reasons to make the murder a group - satanic - orgy - halloween - cult murder act, rather than a lone killer, on Day 1. (I say yes here too. And so does Psychic medium Gabriella Carlizzi and her ghostly compadre Father Gabriel, the deceased Vatican priest and exorcist who provided her with 'illuminations').

And a follow-up to the second point, did Mignini act on those reasons to frame the crime as a group effort focusing on Knox, and if so, then when? (Again, I'm on board for yes, and early. The interrogations required advance planning, and the lab results are cooked).

 

[Desert Fox]

Any DNA done that uses samples that aren't identified as some substance such as semen, saliva or blood is problematic. Certainly LCN DNA found in the trunk of a car of a victim that didn't have any contact with the killer would be solid evidence without an explanation of how it could have found its way there.

The crook in Yellowstone was an idiot. Why not use a sponge and water?

Here is one where the evidence seems good. . . .I don't think it was LCN though.

"Woman in Box"

There is a woman found in a large Tupperware style storage container.
He calls the police after he opened the box after he smelled something coming from it.
He knows the woman and claims to be storing the box of the man who used to be a roommate of the woman in the box.
Though the use of DNA, the crime lab determined that the duct tape on the initially unopened sides of the box had skin cells from the roommate. Seems to be a pretty solid case to me.

 

[Desert Fox]

A retired senior trial counsel for the U.S. Department of Justice, Michael Scadron, has just written a Ground Report article......

..... detailing how the Italian Supreme Court directed the Florence Appeals court to reverse the burden of proof for the defendants in front of it.

Given that the onus at trial was for the defence to prove its innocence, it makes it all the more telling that only one of the 2 dozen defence requests for new testing was denied by Nencini.

But don't worry. Stilicho has a list of lies and platonov has a litany of ad hominem. Peter Q. Has 100s of lawyers and Michael of the real PMF has the bleach receipts.

And Peggy of the fake PMF continues to be, oh so "Peggy".

Luckily, Google was my friend and here is the article

Still, I have some really badly written Ground Report articles.

 

[carbonjam72]

Contamination source

Interesting question. Metal, I think, would need to be swabbed. Other substances, e.g., cloth, might be treated differently. Could the swabs conceivably have been a source of contamination? Idk.

I'm of the belief that Stefanoni is inducing contamination through environmental exposure, and/or machine residue, and/or through scaling up noise, and/or through inappropriate DNA profile aided and creative interpretation of DNA data.

I don't believe her results are legit, and I don't think she's just getting lucky. I think she has a bag of tricks and she uses them as needed.

One thing though, is that in the case of trace amounts, low copy single run samples; seems unlikely these are planted because how does one physically 'plant' 4 or 5 cells? Seems to risky to count on.

Seems more likely that transporting samples in the same box, leaving them in the open air in the lab, running through the machine sequentially after a target profile, these kinds of maneuvers where the exact moment is hard to pin down but there's likely to be a 'happy accident' at some point.

Then she just gets rid of anything that isn't happy.

 

[NancyS]

This statement is predicated only on the word of the powerful and connected public relations campaign engaged by the Knox/Mellas/Sollecito families to spread misinformation and confuse the casual observer. It is featured as #32 on a brand new list of the Top 50 lies produced and disseminated by the anti-Kercher brigade. The list is reprinted here so you can see how substantial it is:

1. Knox was summoned to the Perugia central police station on 5 November 2007.
2. Knox was subjected to an all-night interrogation on 5/6 November.
3. Knox wasn’t provided with an interpreter for her questioning on 5 November 2007.
4. Knox wasn’t given anything to eat or drink.
5. Knox was yelled at and beaten by the police.
6. Knox was refused a lawyer.
7. Knox was tag-teamed by two police officers every hour.
8. Knox was asked to imagine what might have happened.
9. Knox claimed she had had a “dream” or “vision” that she was at the cottage when Meredith was murdered.
10. Amanda Knox was questioned in Italian.
11. Dr Mignini questioned Knox on 5 November 2007.
12. Knox didn’t confess until 6am.
13. Knox retracted her allegation against Lumumba immediately.
14. In the days following Meredith’s murder, Knox voluntarily stayed in Perugia to help the police.
15. All of Meredith’s friends left immediately.
16. There were only two tiny pieces of DNA evidence that implicated her, but they were probably contaminated.
17. The knife has essentially been thrown out.
18. The knife doesn’t match any of the wounds on Meredith’s body.
19. The DNA on the blade could match half the population of Italy.
20. Meredith’s DNA wasn’t found on the blade of the knife.
21. No other knives were taken from Sollecito’s apartment.
22. The knife was chosen at random.
23. No control tests were done.
24. There is no evidence of Amanda Knox at the actual crime scene.
25. None of the Luminol* stains contained Meredith’s DNA.
26. Mignini is persecuting Amanda Knox.
27. Mignini claimed Meredith was killed as part of a satanic ritual.
28. Mignini claimed Meredith was killed in a sex game that went wrong.
29. Mignini called Amanda Knox a “she-devil.”
30. Dr Mignini was convicted of a felony and faced prison.
31. Rudy Guede was a drifter.
32. Guede had a criminal record at the time of the murder.
33. Guede left his DNA all over Meredith and all over the crime scene.
34. Guede left his semen at the crime scene.
35. Guede left his DNA inside Meredith’s bag.
36. Guede left his bloody fingerprints all over the crime scene.
37. Guede left his hair at the crime scene.
38. Guede pleaded guilty or confessed.
39. Guede’s prison sentence was reduced because he made a deal with the prosecutors.
40. Guede didn’t implicate Knox and Sollecito until much later.
41. Amanda Knox didn’t know Rudy Guede.
42. Raffaele Sollecito had never been in trouble with the police.
43. Sollecito had an impeccable track record.
44. Sollecito couldn’t confirm Knox’s alibi because he was sleeping.
45. Amanda Knox had never been in trouble with the police.
46. Amanda Knox was retried for the same crimes.
47. The Italian Supreme Court ruled that Amanda Knox’s interrogation was illegal.
48. The Supreme Court threw out Amanda Knox’s statements.
49. Dr. Stefanoni and the forensic technicians broke international protocols.
50. Amanda Knox is being railroaded or framed.

The full text is available at the TJMK and is even now being tweeted and retweeted to concerned individuals in the media.

At the JREF, we have become accustomed to exploding myths and relying purely on documentation such as the compelling reasoning of Judges Nencini, Micheli, Matteini, and Massei, along with strong scientific support and unbiased judgement. The list above was compiled by one of the most vigorous on-line supporters of victims' rights and all sources are properly attributed.

This document might become a good start for those new to the case who still labour under the illusion that Amanda and Raffaele were not responsible for Meredith Kercher's death.

You guys sure do love Guede - and I did proper laugh at the phrase 'victims rights', when you're doing everything possible to minimise the involvent of the man who's DNA was found in the victim's vagina. You guys should be so proud, maybe Guede will join TJMK when he's soon released from prison and you can have one giant love-fest

 

[Desert Fox]

You guys sure do love Guede - and I did proper laugh at the phrase 'victims rights', when you're doing everything possible to minimise the involvent of the man who's DNA was found in the victim's vagina. You guys should be so proud, maybe Guede will join TJMK when he's soon released from prison and you can have one giant love-fest

This is a key issue here. . . .We could always be wrong but we consider Amanda Knox and Raffale Sollecito to be innocent. We think the evidence points to innocence and is incredibly strong.

Victims rights and victims families rights do not include the right to incarcerate or otherwise punish innocent people.

I have a question for anybody on the pro guilt side - Do you consider it even possible that AK and RS are innocent?