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Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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AmyStrange said:
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Interestingly enough, drug users and dealers understand the conversion from ounces to grams (and vice versa) better than most other Americans do, but that's just my opinion,

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The metric system could not be simpler...the reason it is the scientific system...it is all the converting back and forth that is difficult. The USA is a dinosaur...forget gallons...you will learn liters cost x each. Miles are now kilometers and forget miles...and yet I still see the old er Canadians who have been the most recent changeover group still refer to imperial measure...

This wont last too many more generations...meanwhile hand me a hand full of 8 penny nails please. And is 26 sweater weather or shorts and t shirt?
 
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Strozzi said:
Who said anything about winning a lawsuit? Winning a court judgement is secondary to putting the issue on trial in a real court where the manufacturer's scientists are crossexamined and defend their machine by repudiating Stefanoni and spelling out how she abused the machine process to derive false results! Doing it under the threat of a $100 million judgement propels the issue into the headlines and talkshows and underscores how much Amanda has been injured by this.

ETA: Suppose a jury of non-scientists decides that the manufacturer foresaw or should have foreseen that their DNA analyzer sold to an Italian police lab could be misused to falsify evidence and that the manufacturer failed to design in cautions to prevent that? There could be a favorable award for Amanda.

How dare the manufacturer sell a machine for DNA forensic analysis to a police lab that is so incompetent that the lab director and her supervisor contend there has never been DNA contamination in the lab! That's like selling electric cattle prods to the Chinese prison service and claiming you did not realize they might be misused.
(Do you like my analogy? :p. )
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Yes this is correct and it will work! I have no doubt that a jury would figure out what went on and that the manufacturer may be somewhat on the hook here. But especially Italy will be revealed as the fraudsters they actually are.

They have had enough time and data to certainly understand the volume of problems in this case and yet they do nothing...In fact they do the opposite of nothing...they make even dumber conclusions.
 
Strozzi said:
Backfire? How?

It would not be a frivolous lawsuit if the manufacturer tried to have it dismissed and a judge ordered it to proceed. Nor would it be frivolous if it puts the issue on the evening news. Nor would it be frivolous if the manufacturer's scientists repudiate Stefanini for misusing the machine process. It would not be frivolous if testimony developed in the lawsuit is used to challenge extradition.
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How could it backfire? If it was dismissed. If it didn't make the evening news. If no manufacturer's scientists ever got to testify. If it failed to challenge extradition. Then the press would say that she was trying desperately to get out of going to prison for a murder she committed.

If, if, if . . . don't get me wrong, I think you're right about everything. The publicity would be BIG if testimony ever were taken in public. Knox would be vindicated 100% and would probably have a case for action against the Italian authorities who acted in bad faith.

BUT as we've seen over and over and over, there's no reason to expect that being right means winning.

BTW, I see that KP over at IIJ has posted an address where you can send congratulations to AK for finishing her degree. :) Well done, Amanda!
 
Here is an analogy. An American goes to Italy. While there she is injured by an American manufactured car sold in Italy to an Italian. The car has breaks that work fine when used properly anywhere, but sometimes fail and permit the vehicle to run over innocent people if not used properly. The US manufacturer knew or should have known that the vehicle might not be operated in proper fashion in Italy and failed to include a reasonable warning feature that would gave flagged misuse before harm could arise.

The American, who suffered great injury from the misuse of the American vehicle in Italy, is now back in the US. The American sues the US manufacturer in a US court for product liability - failure to design in the warning system when they knew or should have known that the vehicle manufactured in the US and sold abroad would possibly be operated in an unsafe manner in Italy.
 
kwill said:
Strozzi, I fully appreciate the genius of this idea, and I think the possibility exists that it could work exactly as you say. Since we're all skeptics here though, I need to point out that it could backfire badly.

Can you picture it? Convicted Murderer Amanda Knox Tries to Escape Prison with Frivolous Lawsuit!

If that became the prominent meme, it would hurt her and Raffaele. That said, I don't have a better idea.
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Except that it IS NOT a frivolous lawsuit. The science and machine were provably misused. Scientists can line up on sides...who will stand on the side that the Italians used or abuse the machinery and why did the manufacturer not better prepare or warn the users?

The manufacturer may not be held liable but Italy will then have lots of well earned explaining to do. It is a necessary lawsuit to help prove corruption and to save others from this potential abuse.

Like me suing a breathalyzer manufacturer for reading positive and destroying me even when I don't drink anymore...(just as much but not anymore). And yes cattle prods should not be sold to Italians...wait....Italians should not own cattle...no...honest we had them set to stun only.

The Italians need to prove that they used the machine correctly. Something that is impossible btw...But they don't need to prove that to anyone right now do they?
 
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acbytesla said:
Welcome aboard Dopre. Don't worry. We won't bite... Well some of us do...but you will survive.
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Dopre...welcome. Stay away from Williams and you will be fine.

There is/was a Tom somebody or another (microbiologist?) here or perhaps at IIP that actually worked daily in this field.

Hans...do you recall him?
 
RandyN said:
Except that it IS NOT a frivolous lawsuit. The science and machine were provably misused. Scientists can line up on sides...who will stand on the side that the Italians used or abuse the machinery and why did the manufacturer not better prepare or warn the users?

The manufacturer may not be held liable but Italy will then have lots of well earned explaining to do. It is a necessary lawsuit to help prove corruption and to save others from this potential abuse.
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Well, I know that, and you know that . . . do you trust the press to get it right? I'm just looking for ways it could go wrong. If the point of a lawsuit is not to win but to secure a sympathetic public, the press would have to give up writing about Amanda's looks/sex life/behavior and focus for one damn minute on the details that people obsess about here at JREF.

Would they?
 
RandyN said:
Except that it IS NOT a frivolous lawsuit. The science and machine were provably misused. Scientists can line up on sides...who will stand on the side that the Italians used or abuse the machinery and why did the manufacturer not better prepare or warn the users?

The manufacturer may not be held liable but Italy will then have lots of well earned explaining to do. It is a necessary lawsuit to help prove corruption and to save others from this potential abuse.

Like me suing a breathalyzer manufacturer for reading positive and destroying me even when I don't drink anymore...(just as much but not anymore). And yes cattle prods should not be sold to Italians...wait....Italians should not own cattle...no...honest we had them set to stun only.

The Italians need to prove that they used the machine correctly. Something that is impossible btw...But they don't need to prove that to anyone right now do they?
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The questions for a jury to decide is;
Is it foreseeable that the equipment could be misused in this manner?
Is that misuse likely to cause damages?
Did the manufacturer take reasonable care to prevent misuse?

I do think that winning a judgement would be difficult, but as has been said, it might be worthwhile just to get the manufacturers on the record for the world to see that this is not how they meant their equipment to be used.
 
I think you all will be seeing a good story in the media soon about Amanda btw.

Wonder if you can guess.
 
Ah .. Imperial weights and measures. Where things are measured according to things we can relate to: the length of a thumb, or a foot, or a cricket pitch (which turns out to be a tenth of a furlong, of course). The Romans were smarter, until it came to long multiplication and division. LOL. Pounds, shillings and pence. What will the Scots use if they vote for independence: groats?

I go with the concensus. There are far too few law suits in this case. Just about everybody here should be on a calunnia charge and holed up in Capanne awaiting trial, especially Grinder. I wouldn't hold out much hope for Randy.
 
RandyN said:
Dopre...welcome. Stay away from Williams and you will be fine.

There is/was a Tom somebody or another (microbiologist?) here or perhaps at IIP that actually worked daily in this field.

Hans...do you recall him?
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Tom Zupacnic. Yes, he is a microbiologist.
 
Strozzi said:
Here is an analogy. An American goes to Italy. While there she is injured by an American manufactured car sold in Italy to an Italian. The car has breaks that work fine when used properly anywhere, but sometimes fail and permit the vehicle to run over innocent people if not used properly. The US manufacturer knew or should have known that the vehicle might not be operated in proper fashion in Italy and failed to include a reasonable warning feature that would gave flagged misuse before harm could arise.

The American, who suffered great injury from the misuse of the American vehicle in Italy, is now back in the US. The American sues the US manufacturer in a US court for product liability - failure to design in the warning system when they knew or should have known that the vehicle manufactured in the US and sold abroad would possibly be operated in an unsafe manner in Italy.
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No the analogy is an American goes to Italy and is run over by an American manufactured car. The brakes work fine but the Italian driver just leaned on the hooter and didn't use the brakes. The American is sued for damage to the car because she should have jumped out of the way. She is advised by non legally qualified people on the internet to sue the manufacturer for not putting instructions that brakes should be used to avoid hitting pedestrians.
 
Strozzi said:
A DNA analyzer should be able to detect that it is being fed LCN DNA and every result generated from it should caution/warn that it is LCN and state "This instrument is not designed to process LCN and the resultant output data is suspect". Evan a deaf Italian judge should be able to read that.

It is foreseeable that the machine may be misused to process and evaluate forensic evidence, and there should be no design leeway for it to be misused that way.
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There are three different machines here. The machine currently being considered is a combination of a thermal cycler that does DNA amplification, and a plate reader, that does quantification. It is real time because it does the reading after each cycle of amplification.

The amplified sample is then put through the STR typing machine (Abiprism 3130) see here for details.
http://www.cstl.nist.gov/strbase/pub_pres/NJSP2006_CE_Fundamentals.pdf
This machine does not know how much DNA is being put into it. This does the typing.

Added for clarification.
1) extract DNA from crime scene sample e.g. blood stain.
2) quantify DNA in a sample of the DNA extract from 1 (various machines used)
3) appropriately adjust sample of DNA extract from 1 to give appropriate amount for STR amplification
4) STR amplification
5) STR typing (capillary electropheresis) the abiprism
 
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Planigale said:
No the analogy is an American goes to Italy and is run over by an American manufactured car. The brakes work fine but the Italian driver just leaned on the hooter and didn't use the brakes. The American is sued for damage to the car because she should have jumped out of the way. She is advised by non legally qualified people on the internet to sue the manufacturer for not putting instructions that brakes should be used to avoid hitting pedestrians.
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You got the idea. But there is more. It is not just a matter of the Italian driver ignoring instructions. It is foreseeable that in Italy the drivers hit the horn when they should hit the brakes. For the model being exported to Italy, the US car manufacturer should have hooked the breaks to the horn button rather than to a peddle on the floor! :p. A faulty design in their export model. A US jury of average Americans can understand that. Verdict: "Judgement for the plaintiff."

It's like putting the steering wheel on the wrong side when manufacturing a US car for the British market. It's weird. But US car manufacturers forsee that British drivers get in the car on the wrong side. They could print in the car's instruction manual "Driver, sit on the correct side". Planigale, that would meet your terms as expressed in your comment abive. But since so many British drivers sit on the wrong side, US design engineers accommodate for it by moving the steering wheel over to the wrong side.

When zero matter is in a test input and you cook it and amplify it, the output result should still be zero. If you get a positive quantity readout, the machine should flag it with warning letters that say Contamination!

If there is contamination in the machine, maybe more of the cookies you are cooking are bad. Don't trust any of them. You've ruined the whole batch. Throw them all out. In fact, maybe the printout for each sample being tested should be marked: Machine likely contaminated.

Seriously, the manufacturer knew that the machine would be used to examine DNA evidence in criminal cases. It is foreseeable that it could be accidentally or deliberately misused to produce inaccurate results and that the results could be used to harm an innocent person. That really is foreseeable. The machine should have had safeguards designed in to flag contamination.
 
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Planigale said:
There are three different machines here. The machine currently being considered is a combination of a thermal cycler that does DNA amplification, and a plate reader, that does quantification. It is real time because it does the reading after each cycle of amplification.

The amplified sample is then put through the STR typing machine (Abiprism 3130) see here for details.
http://www.cstl.nist.gov/strbase/pub_pres/NJSP2006_CE_Fundamentals.pdf
This machine does not know how much DNA is being put into it. This does the typing.

Added for clarification.
1) extract DNA from crime scene sample e.g. blood stain.
2) quantify DNA in a sample of the DNA extract from 1 (various machines used)
3) appropriately adjust sample of DNA extract from 1 to give appropriate amount for STR amplification
4) STR amplification
5) STR typing (capillary electropheresis) the abiprism
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The extraction of DNA was done by EZ1 (Qiagen). I guess this in essence cleans (or removes) contaminants from the DNA sample (not to be confused with contamination of the DNA sample). How does this machine add (or take away) from the end result profile being reliable?
 
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