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Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I do realise from the latest discussion that the prosecution have been incredibly insulting to the memory of Meredith Kercher. They have her sleeping on a pillow covered in sperm for no idea how long and they have four men innocently touching her bra, which would suggest she hasn't washed her underwear in quite a long time - and yet they continue to argue that it is Amanda who paid little regard to personal hygiene.

I think it would be more likely that the sperm belongs to Guede and that the bra-clasp has been severely continated, than Meredith Kercher paid that little care to her personal hygiene.

I was also hoping that someone could explain the bra clasp DNA to me? What exactly was found? Was it a complete profile of Raffaele or just y haplotype mixed with the DNA of others and therefore could not rule him out, but was also not a definite match. I remember from the Hellman trial the experts saying they could have found a match for anyone amongst the mixture of DNA, is this corret?
 
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It cracks me up when folks, not too street wise,
only count the times that Rudy Guede was busted, fingerprinted, arrested, jailed, tried in court and convicted for a crime.

Don'cha know that the dude was doin' his ************
for quite awhile before he was busted?

Or was he 1 stupid ****,
busted on his 1st mis-adventure?
You decide...

RW

This is a point I have tried to make with Grinder. About 90 percent of reported burglaries go without an arrest. It is estimated that more than 25 percent of burglaries also go unreported. No one knows for sure just how many burglaries that Rudy committed. But odds are that he was involved in many more than what we have discussed.

I get that we don't really know for sure if Rudy was busy breaking into places, but odds are he was.
 
I think what i have learned from recent discussions and realised it applies to the Italian courts is the use of argument from authority. In particular not only is there a default to the prosecution expert opinion, but the justification is that they are the prosecution experts and therefore somehow better than the defence experts. In general there seems to have been little attempt to address the arguments made. Thus there is no recognition of the case made (unopposed) for the glass distribution demonstrating the glass was broken by a stone from outside in. The unopposed psychology opinion about induced memories and false confessions.

The sad thing is that the prosecution experts on footprints clearly were not. The same channel five documentary that demonstrated how easily the climb to Filomena's window could be made also included an interview by a physical anthropologist explaining how one had to use dynamic prints made as people walk and run and if possible on a similar surface to match prints. The prosecution experts not only referenced the discredited methods of Robins but wrongly said that the surface the print was made on and the movement of the person making it was irrelevant.


I agree with your point of view on this matter. I think that there's still a latent mindset in Italian criminal courts regarding preservation of the inquisitorial system. And I think that because of such reactionary thinking, judges still have a worrying (and wrong) inclination to regard the prosecution case as "the search for truth, whatever the truth may be", while the defence case is "try to get the defendant acquitted at any cost, regardless of the truth".

If this is the case, then it's easy to see how Italian judges/courts can automatically place the testimony of the prosecution's expert witnesses far above that of the defence's expert witnesses, in terms of credibility and reliability. I believe that any attempts by the defence to challenge prosecution experts is viewed by some judges primarily as nothing more than a desperate and mendacious tactic (again, related to "try to get the defendant acquitted at any cost, regardless of the truth"). I believe that the Massei and Nencini courts exhibited exactly this type of flawed and reactionary thinking, and that it had a significant effect upon the verdicts.
 
I agree with your point of view on this matter. I think that there's still a latent mindset in Italian criminal courts regarding preservation of the inquisitorial system. And I think that because of such reactionary thinking, judges still have a worrying (and wrong) inclination to regard the prosecution case as "the search for truth, whatever the truth may be", while the defence case is "try to get the defendant acquitted at any cost, regardless of the truth".

If this is the case, then it's easy to see how Italian judges/courts can automatically place the testimony of the prosecution's expert witnesses far above that of the defence's expert witnesses, in terms of credibility and reliability. I believe that any attempts by the defence to challenge prosecution experts is viewed by some judges primarily as nothing more than a desperate and mendacious tactic (again, related to "try to get the defendant acquitted at any cost, regardless of the truth"). I believe that the Massei and Nencini courts exhibited exactly this type of flawed and reactionary thinking, and that it had a significant effect upon the verdicts.

I do believe a lot of people think that way. There is the pablum that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but I believe judges and juries have a tendency to believe by the very fact that you stand accused in a courtroom, that you are most likely guilty.
 
I used to think this way about authority also...

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I do believe a lot of people think that way. There is the pablum that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but I believe judges and juries have a tendency to believe by the very fact that you stand accused in a courtroom, that you are most likely guilty.
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I personally believe that this is because people want to believe that authority is always (or mostly) right. This want (need) is very important to them, because the alternative is too scary for them to even contemplate too much. And some people just go along just to get along.

Not everyone believes this, but enough do so it's practically impossible (or at the least very difficult) to fight on most levels. I salute those people who do go against the grain (and authority) and risk being ostracized for it, but that's just my opinion,

d

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I have actually noticed that as a general feature on this forum. JREF posters are very used to supporting the establishment view. Man did really land on the moon, homoeopathic pills really are just sugar, JFK was shot by LHO and nobody else, and so on. I think that's part of why discussions about alleged miscarriages of justice attract such hostility from some quarters, with calls to banish all such woo talk to the CT subforum.

Despite all the hoo-hah about "critical thinking", there is an entrenched mindset that automatically takes the default position that authority is always right. Sometimes it's not pretty.

The fact is, authority is usually right. It's the extrapolation to "always" that's the problem. We know that most swans are white, but we also know that black swans are occasionally encountered. It's therefore no use saying to someone who claims to have spotted a black swan that this can't be so because "swans are white". And yet that is how many guilters think.

Even those in Australia, where I understand most swans are black. Italy - the Australia of the criminal justice system.

Rolfe.
 
I think what i have learned from recent discussions and realised it applies to the Italian courts is the use of argument from authority. In particular not only is there a default to the prosecution expert opinion, but the justification is that they are the prosecution experts and therefore somehow better than the defence experts.

And more... There is something going on with the old system's quest for truth and a deep distrust of the underworld. They believe in a religion that to me is filled with smoke and mirrors. Also, it all is like a opera plot, everything. It's about the story, the narrative, the tale in the tradition of old Rome.


In general there seems to have been little attempt to address the arguments made. Thus there is no recognition of the case made (unopposed) for the glass distribution demonstrating the glass was broken by a stone from outside in. The unopposed psychology opinion about induced memories and false confessions.

Inexplicable. But what is more amazing is that there is no outrage by the people.
 
This is a point I have tried to make with Grinder. About 90 percent of reported burglaries go without an arrest. It is estimated that more than 25 percent of burglaries also go unreported. No one knows for sure just how many burglaries that Rudy committed. But odds are that he was involved in many more than what we have discussed.

I get that we don't really know for sure if Rudy was busy breaking into places, but odds are he was.


He was a fence. The only time he was caught where he shouldn't be he only had a cheap kitchen knife and some petty cash. he wasn't loaded up with loot.

Just as no one had an interest in showing only one perp during Rudi's trial, there is no one interested in disputing the meme about him. Hell he is usually referred to a drifter when in fact he lived in the same city for years and had an apartment. He played on a local semi-pro basketball team and IIRC had just lost his job.

Naturally everyone wants him to look as bad as possible, except maybe Mignini.

Though you continue to put faith into CT you never address a key question. CT DID report the break-in but failed to fill out a report at the police station. He claims he recognized Rudi at a club and had him banned. A guy that is local breaks into your place steals money and a credit card, threatens you with a knife and you don't bother to tell the police?

RW's Spanish article has him with a stash of computers. Kokomani was at the scene of the murder, knew Rudi and was associated with the Albanian criminal element in Perugia. Why was he let off so easily? Have the Albanians paid off the PLE?

Part of the difficulty of recovering stolen property, the police say, is that burglars - typically men in their 20's, who commit as many as five thefts a day - work quickly to dispose of their loot through a network of middlemen, or fences, and tracing the property becomes extremely difficult. Among the easily portable items most often stolen are video-cassette recorders, cameras, stereos and other electronic equipment and jewelry.​

He was fence. He had connections in Milan where he could sell Perugian stolen merch.

So Tesla do you believe that CT recognized Rudi but AFTER having called the police initially then just let him off with a banning from a couple of clubs? If the prosecution would benefit from saying it is reasonable, you'd be crying foul just like with Curatolo, Quintavalle and Nara.
 
And more... There is something going on with the old system's quest for truth and a deep distrust of the underworld. They believe in a religion that to me is filled with smoke and mirrors. Also, it all is like a opera plot, everything. It's about the story, the narrative, the tale in the tradition of old Rome.

Inexplicable. But what is more amazing is that there is no outrage by the people.

This is exactly Luca Cheli's point when he critiques Judge Nencini's motivations report.

Chelli says that at one point, Nencini poses three rhetorical questions, the answer to which (as Nencini provides) points to the irresistable inference that Knox and Sollecito are guilty.

The third question is: What was the aim of the clean-up.

So, with no evidence that a clean-up took place, esp. one at the molecular level meant to mask two of three forensic signatures, Nencini just assumes it and builds nonsense upon nonsense by jumping to the "important" question - what was its aim?

Cheli implies that Nencini is writing more of a film review, than a forensic reason why two people are guilty.

He says that the clean-up was intended to be done until....

Cheli said:
the only possible aim of the cleanup and of the overall alteration of the crime scene (including the faked burglary) was that of “preventing that the murder were discovered before its authors had had the possibility of organizing their fuoriuscita dalla scena“. (page 85)​

That is an expression, apparently, usually used about actors who are preparing to leave the stage.

However, in Nencini's haste to dramatize this, so as to pique the cinematice interest of his reader, Nencini fails to deliver on this. He just asserts it as a dramatic theme, then drops it.

Cheli said:
So I wondered if Nencini perhaps implied that Knox and Sollecito wanted to flee, to perhaps even leave the country and were just prevented from doing so by what Nencini, later in the ruling, seems to consider an early discovery of the corpse due to the unforeseen arrival of the Postal Police. Or maybe he is simply implying that they just wanted to leave for Gubbio and let others discover the body.

However in both cases calling Romanelli and alerting her about the burglary and that something could have happened to Meredith (albeit not a murder) well before the arrival of the Postal Police belies such an interpretation, as we will repeat when dealing with the discovery of the murder.

In the end I am left wondering what Nencini really meant with those three words, whether something “remained in the pen” or if it is just a dead end in a ruling written by multiple authors lacking coordination.​

Or maybe Nencini just wanted to dust off his chops as a drama critic, and just forgot he's supposed to, as a convincing judge, tie in all this into some unifying theme which describes, beyond a reasonable doubt, why two people should spend a quarter century in jail.

Once the ISC rules, one way or another, Nencini will simply be forgotten. This will be for two reasons:

1) for innocenters, the report is simply inane. Vibio, who reads Italian, simply refuses to translate the part of Nencini's report where he says that two of the four specks of Y-genetic material belong to women. My bet is that Vibio just wants to sting this out until Vibio is forgotten.

2) It also explains why guilters on the other sites continue with their flights of fancy, and don't use ANYTHING from Nencnini. Andrea Vogt and Machiavelli still, in essence, argue the case Mignini brought to Massei's court, and even Massei debunked major portions of Mignini's theories.​
 
I once believed Raffaele and Amanda were guilty as sin...

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I have actually noticed that as a general feature on this forum. JREF posters are very used to supporting the establishment view. Man did really land on the moon, homoeopathic pills really are just sugar, JFK was shot by LHO and nobody else, and so on. I think that's part of why discussions about alleged miscarriages of justice attract such hostility from some quarters, with calls to banish all such woo talk to the CT subforum.

Despite all the hoo-hah about "critical thinking", there is an entrenched mindset that automatically takes the default position that authority is always right. Sometimes it's not pretty.

The fact is, authority is usually right. It's the extrapolation to "always" that's the problem. We know that most swans are white, but we also know that black swans are occasionally encountered. It's therefore no use saying to someone who claims to have spotted a black swan that this can't be so because "swans are white". And yet that is how many guilters think.

Even those in Australia, where I understand most swans are black. Italy - the Australia of the criminal justice system.

Rolfe.
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I have to agree with you there Rolfe. Authority is usually right, but I have to qualify this by saying that this statement was not always correct (and still may not be correct, in my opinion, but who am I to say one way or the other if that's really true or not)

All you have to do is study history to see this.

I personally believe it's always a good idea to constantly question (and re-evaluate) your beliefs and perceptions (and others as well), and I always do this constantly, at least now a days. In the past, I usually did not do this because of personal stubbornness and an egotistical desire to always be right. I could argue for hours along those lines, even though I knew (or found out) that I was simply wrong.

Unfortunately many (if not most) people don't do this unless their beliefs (or perceptions) are challenged through personal experience, but even with that said, believing authority is "usually" right is still a good place to start when evaluating anything. It's easier to start from a known quantity than an unknown one.

It's how I began to realize that maybe my original conclusion that Amanda was guilty may not be correct, and I'm still willing to have my mind changed if anyone could show me evidence to the contrary, but so far no one has done this to my satisfaction.

It's not impossible that her and Raffaele are really guilty, it's just so improbable (the evidence itself is so improbably against it) that I just don't know how else to look at it. I'm more than willing to listen to any explanation that erases these improbabilities, but nothing yet has been able to do it. I really have an open mind in this area.

But as always, that's just my opinion,

d

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I apologize if this has already been posted

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Sensational Murder Trial in NH Draws Comparisons to Amanda Knox Case
MAY 29 2014, 2:04PM

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/05/29/rough-sex-murder-trial-nh-draws-comparisons-amanda-knox-case

"A sensational murder trial in New Hampshire is drawing comparisons to the Amanda Knox case in Italy. A 31-year-old man, Seth Mazzaglia (shown above, right), is accused of first-degree murder in the 2012 death of 19-year-old University of New Hampshire student Elizabeth Marriott... "

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I have to agree with you there Rolfe. Authority is usually right, but I have to qualify this by saying that this statement was not always correct (and still may not be correct, in my opinion, but who am I to say one way or the other if that's really true or not)

The authority which is usually right is an authority which recognizes its own inherent power, and puts in powerful checks and balances so as not only to be right....

..... but to be seen to be right.

A competent authority is the exact opposite of how people like Mignini or Stefanoni or Cassazione in Italy have acted. Competent authorities don't say, "prove I'm wrong," they will take it upon themselves to prove that they are right, and demonstrate that through various incarnations of peer review.

It's the opposite of what Massei did with Stefanoni, who basically ruled that Stefanoni was right in her evidence, "because she said so." Any criticism of Stefanoni should have resulted in Stefanoni uploading the PDFs to the internet for all to see, to PROVE her work was sound.

Here it is, almost 7 years later, and Stefanoni still wants us to take her word for it, and the Italian judiciary wants the burden of proof reversed so as to protect that claim.

Everywhere else in the world, Knox and Sollecito would not even have been arrested. Everywhere else in the world, competent authority would have released them when the case against them collapsed, as it collapsed against Lumumba.

"Authority" is so desperate in most places to earn the trust given to them that they continually demonstrate it - not by hiding being dietrology like Machiavelli does.
 
Let's just agree to disagree on this one point, please...

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The authority which is usually right is an authority which recognizes its own inherent power, and puts in powerful checks and balances so as not only to be right....

..... but to be seen to be right.

A competent authority is the exact opposite of how people like Mignini or Stefanoni or Cassazione in Italy have acted. Competent authorities don't say, "prove I'm wrong," they will take it upon themselves to prove that they are right, and demonstrate that through various incarnations of peer review.

It's the opposite of what Massei did with Stefanoni, who basically ruled that Stefanoni was right in her evidence, "because she said so." Any criticism of Stefanoni should have resulted in Stefanoni uploading the PDFs to the internet for all to see, to PROVE her work was sound.

Here it is, almost 7 years later, and Stefanoni still wants us to take her word for it, and the Italian judiciary wants the burden of proof reversed so as to protect that claim.

Everywhere else in the world, Knox and Sollecito would not even have been arrested. Everywhere else in the world, competent authority would have released them when the case against them collapsed, as it collapsed against Lumumba.

"Authority" is so desperate in most places to earn the trust given to them that they continually demonstrate it - not by hiding being dietrology like Machiavelli does.
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My biggest problem with Steffie's competency (not the only one, but definitely the biggest and loudest one in my mind) was how the bra clasp was stored.

How can you possibly not at least question anything else she has done or said? This is one of the many things that need to be explained before I can put to rest the improbabilities of Raffaele and Amanda being guilty of Meredith's murder.

It even makes me wonder about the evidence that convinced Rudy to plead guilty to at least being involved or on the scene during or soon after she was murdered. I'm still not totally convinced he did murder Meredith, and maybe he was telling the truth about someone else doing it, but let's just leave that as just my opinion, because I don't feel like arguing all this all over again.

I'd rather just leave this as agreeing to disagree, please,

d

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There is an interesting quote on another site given by someone called super eight I can not work out if he is pro guilt or not. I have not sourced the quote so cannot speak to its veracity but if true is an admission by Stefanoni that she failed to disclose the crucial negative controls.

On June 3, 2008, Patrizia Stefanoni produced the Report of her “technical analysis” (i.e., laboratory work). On September 25, 2008, she separately provided to the court, in the form of a Bates-stamped collection of printed electropherograms, what she later alleged were “all of the electropherograms relating to the genetic profiles extrapolated from the technical analysis.”

The issue is for the knife the crucial blade sample tested negative for DNA, but was put through amplification and typing and a small amount of DNA was contained in the sample analysed that may have been MK DNA. The negative controls presumably tested negative in quantification. In this instance they should have been processed identically to the sample put through the same number of replication cycles to look for low level contamination with MK DNA. But Stefanoni explicitly says she only provided electropherograms relating to genetic analyses i.e. not the electropherograms of controls.

Now as said I have not identified the original transcript where she said this and the devil will be in the accuracy of translation but if any one recognises this statement I'd be interested in a pointer. I assume it will be somewhere in her testimony of 25 september which a copy is held on Knox's blog site. I do not have time to look now.

Super8 is not a poster to be taken seriously and is certainly not well enough connected for any 'admission' of his to be taken as significant. What would be interesting would be to see this mysterious document that was supposedly filed in October 2008. There must be copies, right? But nothing was copied to the defence at the time or we would know all about this stuff. Why people still struggle over whether fraud is involved here beats me. What more can you want: lies, intuitive selection of 'hole in one' items, cover-ups, disregard for scientific protocols, negative results ignored as if she knew she would get a profile anyway ...
 
My biggest problem with Steffie's competency (not the only one, but definitely the biggest and loudest one in my mind) was how the bra clasp was stored.

How can you possibly not at least question anything else she has done or said? This is one of the many things that need to be explained before I can put to rest the improbabilities of Raffaele and Amanda being guilty of Meredith's murder.

It even makes me wonder about the evidence that convinced Rudy to plead guilty to at least being involved or on the scene during or soon after she was murdered. I'm still not totally convinced he did murder Meredith, and maybe he was telling the truth about someone else doing it, but let's just leave that as just my opinion, because I don't feel like arguing all this all over again.

I'd rather just leave this as agreeing to disagree, please,

d

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Legitimate authority never rests on its own authority as a measure of its own legitimacy. It constantly "proves" it is reliable by self-critique and transparency.

It NEVER says, "You must listen to me because I am the authority," which is in essence what Stefanoni said, and what Massei confirmed in his motivations report.

No authority, for instance, would say, "I've never had an example of contamination in my lab." A legitimate authority would have thrown the doors wide open at the first suggestion of impropriety, and invited every world expert in to write peer review evaluations of the brag.
 
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It even makes me wonder about the evidence that convinced Rudy to plead guilty to at least being involved or on the scene during or soon after she was murdered. I'm still not totally convinced he did murder Meredith, and maybe he was telling the truth about someone else doing it, but let's just leave that as just my opinion, because I don't feel like arguing all this all over again.
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I think the case is solid enough, unless every piece of evidence was fabricated, that I think I would find for guilt in a rape and murder case. The evidence does not seem to be marginal like the evidence against AK/RS.

There is always some outside possibility. I believe I have heard "Not 'No Doubt' but 'Reasonable Doubt.'"
 
Curiosity did not kill the cat

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I think the case is solid enough, unless every piece of evidence was fabricated, that I think I would find for guilt in a rape and murder case. The evidence does not seem to be marginal like the evidence against AK/RS.
There is always some outside possibility. I believe I have heard "Not 'No Doubt' but 'Reasonable Doubt.'"
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This I agree with you on. The evidence against Rudy is way more probable than the evidence against Raffaele and Amanda, especially as NancyS believes (and has posted here) concerning Rudy's handprint in Meredith's blood on Meredith's wall, but I'd still be interested in seeing the evidence itself just out of curiousity's sake.

Especially since he's already pleaded guilty and has pretty much served out his sentence and will be release soon enough, but nuff said in that department, from me at least,

d

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Pay no attention to what happened to the bra clasp...

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Legitimate authority never rests on its own authority as a measure of its own legitimacy. It constantly "proves" it is reliable by self-critique and transparency.
It NEVER says, "You must listen to me because I am the authority," which is in essence what Stefanoni said, and what Massei confirmed in his motivations report.

No authority, for instance, would say, "I've never had an example of contamination in my lab." A legitimate authority would have thrown the doors wide open at the first suggestion of impropriety, and invited every world expert in to write peer review evaluations of the brag.
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Yup, can't argue with you there.

It's like "The Wizard of Oz" movie towards the end when Toto pulls back the curtain, and the Wizard says (paraphrasing), "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

That part always makes me laugh,

d

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No authority, for instance, would say, "I've never had an example of contamination in my lab." A legitimate authority would have thrown the doors wide open at the first suggestion of impropriety, and invited every world expert in to write peer review evaluations of the brag.

Just about no scientific discipline will ever say that they have not found some contradictory findings. Particle measurements often have particles traveling faster than the speed of light. Later though they find "oops."

If I had her say "My lab has never had an example of contamination in the lab," If I had been the defense, I would have dropped a bunch of reports from other forensic scientists and gotten one if possible on the stand that shows that is impossible. Too be blunt, in this case she is simply lying.
 
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