Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[whoanellie]

Her Italian was pretty rubbish at the time, so maybe it was just a big misunderstanding and poor Rudy totally thought Amanda asked him to rape and murder her flatmate, when all she really said was Où est la discothèque?

You've got it backwards. Amanda did ask Rudy to rape and murder (mayhem too) and poor Rudy thought she was asking him the way to the disco.

 

[corplinx]

Why do Italian people have such a hard on for Amanda being guilty anyway? Is is a Nation Pride issue to admit their justice system is so horribly broken?

 

[Desert Fox]

Can somebody provide me with an article which specifically points out the female Y-Hapligroup. On another forum, somebody is asking me for a source for my claim (which is reasonable) but Google is not helping much?

 

[kwill]

This is my new favorite Escher drawing-style-logic of a PGP accusation:

There is no evidence of no contact between all 3.

The writer is referring to AK, RS, and RG. S/he thinks, I guess, that the two innocent defendants have the burden of providing evidence that they never met together with the guilty one.

What on earth does this mean?
There is no evidence of no contact . . . hmmm. What would evidence of no contact look like, I wonder?

A 24/7 video of AK from the moment she arrived in Perugia until the moment she was arrested? How exactly does one provide evidence that something did not happen?

This is the Alice in Wonderland world the PGP lives in, and by gum they want to be taken seriously, too.

 

[Anode]

This is my new favorite Escher drawing-style-logic of a PGP accusation:


The writer is referring to AK, RS, and RG. S/he thinks, I guess, that the two innocent defendants have the burden of providing evidence that they never met together with the guilty one.

What on earth does this mean?
There is no evidence of no contact . . . hmmm. What would evidence of no contact look like, I wonder?

A 24/7 video of AK from the moment she arrived in Perugia until the moment she was arrested? How exactly does one provide evidence that something did not happen?

This is the Alice in Wonderland world the PGP lives in, and by gum they want to be taken seriously, too.

Yes, just like "Show me exactly where the knife DNA contamination happened."

 

[Bill Williams]

This is my new favorite Escher drawing-style-logic of a PGP accusation:

There is no evidence of no contact between all 3.

The writer is referring to AK, RS, and RG. S/he thinks, I guess, that the two innocent defendants have the burden of providing evidence that they never met together with the guilty one.

What on earth does this mean?
There is no evidence of no contact . . . hmmm. What would evidence of no contact look like, I wonder?

A 24/7 video of AK from the moment she arrived in Perugia until the moment she was arrested? How exactly does one provide evidence that something did not happen?

This is the Alice in Wonderland world the PGP lives in, and by gum they want to be taken seriously, too.

This is where I seriously think that the Seattle PR Supertanker is behind guilter posts here.

The intent is to make the guilters look really dumb.

"Knox did not fail to deny having no evidence of no contact with Rudy Guede."

I think that the Seattle PR Supertanker miscalculated, though. Putting that story out in the blogosphere about women having Y-Haplotypes was picked up by Florence convicting Judge Nencini and taken seriously!!

 

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by kwill View Post
This is my new favorite Escher drawing-style-logic of a PGP accusation:


The writer is referring to AK, RS, and RG. S/he thinks, I guess, that the two innocent defendants have the burden of providing evidence that they never met together with the guilty one.

What on earth does this mean?
There is no evidence of no contact . . . hmmm. What would evidence of no contact look like, I wonder?

A 24/7 video of AK from the moment she arrived in Perugia until the moment she was arrested? How exactly does one provide evidence that something did not happen?

This is the Alice in Wonderland world the PGP lives in, and by gum they want to be taken seriously, too.

Yes, just like "Show me exactly where the knife DNA contamination happened."

They are both prime examples of flipping the burden of proof responsibility on it's head.

Don't they get it? It is their responsibility to show that there is a connection not the defense's. Aiken also does the same thing in his way by saying that the lack of an alibi from Amanda and Raffaele proves their guilt.
Never mind that anyone staying at home with their lover would be probably face the same conundrum. Or the fact that digestive evidence points to an approximate 9 to 9:30 to maybe at most 10 PM time of death and computer evidence puts them at Raffaele's at 9:26.

All I can do is shake my head and be mystified.

 

[Desert Fox]

They are both prime examples of flipping the burden of proof responsibility on it's head.

Don't they get it? It is their responsibility to show that there is a connection not the defense's. Aiken also does the same thing in his way by saying that the lack of an alibi from Amanda and Raffaele proves their guilt.
Never mind that anyone staying at home with their lover would be probably face the same conundrum. Or the fact that digestive evidence points to an approximate 9 to 9:30 to maybe at most 10 PM time of death and computer evidence puts them at Raffaele's at 9:26.

All I can do is shake my head and be mystified.

I think that is a valid way of asking. . . .Probably still get a garbage answer but ask:
Let us assume that their story is correct. How do you see the evidence being different if Amanda and Raff watched a movie, had sex, and Amanda did not return to her cottage until the next morning?

 

[kwill]

How do you see the evidence being different if Amanda and Raff watched a movie, had sex, and Amanda did not return to her cottage until the next morning?

Excellent. I'll be so interested in the answer.

 

[Desert Fox]

Excellent. I'll be so interested in the answer.

I am fairly sure I know the answer I will get back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

 

[Strozzi]

Why do Italian people have such a hard on for Amanda being guilty anyway? Is is a Nation Pride issue to admit their justice system is so horribly broken?

Many believe the false, sensational, and inflammatory stories spread in Italian media, much of it orchestrated by leaks from the prosecution and police.

 

[Lensman]

Lensman,

I am most grateful for your link, because I have been banging the drum about secondary and tertiary DNA transfer in these threads for over four years (and interviewing a few forensic scientists along the way). I was not being critical about the protocols in the article; I was highlighting the contrast between good vs. bad evidence collection and underscoring the importance of good technique. The door knob/knife quote stuck out because of the particulars of this case. Raffaele's DNA was almost certainly on Meredith's door (they may have swabbed the door knob, but I have forgotten).

I'm sorry for the implication - I didn't know where you were coming from, I'm getting confused as to who is arguing what.

That's one thing that gets me about the cops shows on TV, they're all gathering evidence while wearing their street clothes & using the same gloves to handle different pieces of evidence.

 

[Samson]

They are both prime examples of flipping the burden of proof responsibility on it's head.

Don't they get it? It is their responsibility to show that there is a connection not the defense's. Aiken also does the same thing in his way by saying that the lack of an alibi from Amanda and Raffaele proves their guilt.
Never mind that anyone staying at home with their lover would be probably face the same conundrum. Or the fact that digestive evidence points to an approximate 9 to 9:30 to maybe at most 10 PM time of death and computer evidence puts them at Raffaele's at 9:26.

All I can do is shake my head and be mystified.

Acbytesla, this notion of "grinding" tod as late as 10pm is not helpful though I know you are allowing for plausible truth.
I think of working backwards from the alibi, which frankly is till 9 35pm in a real scenario. ie we have 9 26 plus x time to get to tod. No prosecution scenario allows for leaving Raffaele's, meeting Guede, all three entering the cottage, and Meredith being dead within 9 minutes. It is a 5 minute walk, plus the piazza or whatever, plus argument, escalation and attack till death. The original prosecution put that at 15 minutes, which takes us to 9 26 plus 4 plus say 5 to talk Guede into the party plus 15, or 9 50 time of death.

The result of one study places gastric emptying commencement at 82 minutes, Colorado State. Significantly there is one hospital that ceases to photograph the process after two hours. This alone indicates a pathology if gastric emptying has not begun inside two hours. If we leave aside debate about alcohol and size of meal, but take the Colorado study as a reference for convenience, we can subtract 82 minutes from 9 50pm, and conclude that Mereddith began her meal at 8 28pm, just 17 minutes before walking home. IF RAFFAELE and AMANDA killed her. I see no reason to leave an extension on the tod to make this logically possible, because it is way outside the latest possible time for meal commencement.

I am being pedantic, because Naruto plus Lalli is a complete proof of innocence, and will, I predict, keep them out of jail, and stick it right where the sun ....... to the PGP and the hopes for Maresca to get paid his fees.

ETA here is the link I have been looking for to the two hour study. There would be no point in this short test if it was still normal for commencement to delay beyond two hours

http://mercymedicalcenter.chsli.org/gastric-empty-study

To be at the extreme end of this, it would have been necessary for Meredith to have eaten as late as 7 50pm, for R and A to be involved. This is way outside all witness testimony.

 

[Samson]

Charlie made a nice summary photo that presents the full 360x360 view for most rooms in the cottage pulled from the Spheron imagery. It's probably the only view of the celling in most areas. This should be available in the folds of IA. It's quite usefull for seeing what the photographers didn't think was important.

Thank you again Dan O, do we have a photograph of the blood spot alone, or has everyone been hoodwinked into thinking Amanda was a little unobservant of the crime scene? I think it is a significantly misleading photograph that would have pushed her a bit closer to the precipice.

 

[MichaelB]

That's ok js202. I've looked at that bathmat image and Rudy's and Raffaele's footprints for a long time I've also read the experts reports and my personal opinion is that it is not conclusive. I simply cannot say that it is or isn't a match to either. The bathmat is just too "fuzzy".

I am not interested in sides per se but the truth even if it incriminates Amanda or Raffaele. Maybe someone else can look at that and agree with your conclusion. It is just not me. There is plenty of other evidence in my mind that proves that Raffaele and Amanda weren't involved.

It looks conclusive to me. It's not Raffaele's.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/translated-pages-professor-vincis-bathmat-analysis/

 

[MichaelB]

 

[Strozzi]

The basis for this is simply that there is no evidence. And no we don't except made-up evidence from the quagmires of your mind.

This kind of logic would lead to assertions such as Prosecutor Mignini looks a bit sweaty, heroin users often get the 'opiate sweats', therefore the good Prosecutor was frequently shooting up with his good pal Curatolo

Nancy, you may be onto something!

 

[JREF2010]

That's ok js202. I've looked at that bathmat image and Rudy's and Raffaele's footprints for a long time I've also read the experts reports and my personal opinion is that it is not conclusive. I simply cannot say that it is or isn't a match to either. The bathmat is just too "fuzzy".

I am not interested in sides per se but the truth even if it incriminates Amanda or Raffaele. Maybe someone else can look at that and agree with your conclusion. It is just not me. There is plenty of other evidence in my mind that proves that Raffaele and Amanda weren't involved.

I agree with your position, if something came out that was convincing I have no problem with accepting it. I never read all the info on the footprint.

These pictures of the footprint on the bathmat always seemed to me as severely weak evidence. (personally think it was made by someone who had a sock on that made that print.The wet sock making the print even more distorted. )

The other known footprints are of barefeet and have great clarity. Sure we can determine it isnt a tiny foot or a super large foot, but to interpret a blurry, blob print as decisive evidence is ridiculous.

 

[JREF2010]

Why do Italian people have such a hard on for Amanda being guilty anyway? Is is a Nation Pride issue to admit their justice system is so horribly broken?

Thats a million dollar question. I was amazed when the prosecution spent so much on a video to shock the jurors, I was surprised how much effort went into this obvious "witch hunt" and I wondered why?

Then the why? was even more elusive as the Judges supported Migninni, and even the ISC became part of the bigger picture.

And as some pro-guilt say "all of these police, judges, prosecutions, rome forensic lab, interrogators have to wrong to believe in the innocence."

and the Florence judges vote guilty, and the Florence judges had Franks Perugia Shock shutdown per Migninni's vindictive quest.

Why do they have it out for these two innocent kids?

 

[acbytesla]

It looks conclusive to me. It's not Raffaele's.

The problem from my perspective Michael is this. On Raffaele's print, I'm sure he was made to stand with his feet flat with an even pressure so that a perfect print could be made. When I look at the fuzzy bathmat print, I have no idea how covered with blood the bottom of his feet were whether or not even pressure was applied. Also for example in the second picture, Professor Vinci draws circles where the the smaller toes were yet I don't actually see the prints of those toes on the bathmat.

I can see Vinci's argument and it very well may be correct. That said, I still believe that the bathmat is too fuzzy to be conclusive about the ID of that print. That said, I don't believe that Raffaele made that print, because I cannot see how Raffaele was even there that night.