Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[JREF2010]

So in a strange way, <pgp> has captured the "logic method" if the Italian courts, and we should be grateful for the demonstration.

Like a cat playing with a mouse?

The car and windows rolled up shouldnt matter, remember old ladys can hear the scream 70+ meters away through double pane glass and across a normally noisy area of a road and parking garage.

But I'm tired of playing with mice, unless a emotional thought creeps up, but it is from an observation point interesting to have the Italian Court perspective applied, I agree, its almost a requirement for the thread to continue.

To convict in ITALY....you dont need Motives, you dont have to have DNA, you dont need sober eyewitnesses, you cant trust cell tower logs, ...

you just need people like Migninni and Edgardo Giobbi who can just tell.

toss in the manipulation of the victims family by a slimeball lawyer, who sides with the prosecution of the inbred community and there you have it.

and funny old men with white wigs on their head who probably spend about ....oh I'll guess 18 hrs on the case...and find Rudy Guede credible and two college kids to be liars.

Verdict: Guilty

 

[Vibio]

Why should they be included?

Gee... now, why should it be mentioned that he was with his wife and kid in a potentially dangerous situation ( wife and kids do have a tendency to talk) ?

 

[Vibio]

No one ever claimed this before the Nencini report.

I can't yet really comment on the Nencini Report. I'm not quite half way through it. And of course I'm reading it in Italian.

And you?

 

[acbytesla]

This is not correct.
The friends' car ,a Citroen, was not parked at the entrance to the cottage.
Please read Carmela Occhipinti's testimony.
The breakdown occurred at 10.30 pm and it took 30 minutes for the tow truck driver to arrive. He left at 11.15 pm.

According to Guede in his deposition of 26 March 2008 there was a small white car with its headlights on parked by the cottage entrance, with 2 people in the front seats, which later moved off. Guede also stated there was a Moroccan vagrant hanging around.
Kokomani had a dark blue '91 Golf.

I'm not sure I'd believe a single word that Rudy has to say.

 

[MichaelB]

Gee... now, why should it be mentioned that he was with his wife and kid in a potentially dangerous situation ( wife and kids do have a tendency to talk) ?

What dangerous situation? There was a car break down and the occupants were in the company of friends who pulled over and waited.

 

[Matthew Best]

What dangerous situation?

Amanda Knox was walking around with a loaded knife.

 

[MichaelB]

Delete

 

[NancyS]

Gee... now, why should it be mentioned that he was with his wife and kid in a potentially dangerous situation ( wife and kids do have a tendency to talk) ?

So the wife and kids also didn't hear or see anything whilst sitting in their car right next to the cottage - but the bionic-eared old lady did?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

two questions about a fair trial

Especially when you have losing arguments.

Vibio,

If witness statements from another trial (at which you were not represented and which was an abbreviated trial) are used against you, have you gotten a fair trial? Same question with respect to the conclusions of such a proceeding.

 

[Bill Williams]

I can't yet really comment on the Nencini Report. I'm not quite half way through it. And of course I'm reading it in Italian.

And you?

Ad hominem.

Please let me know when you get to the part when Nencini says that contamination route must be demonstrated - despite film evidence at the Massei trial showing that very route.....

... and at the Massei trial, Stefanoni herself testifying about four possible routes, even as she discounts them, because, "We've never had a case of contamination."

That's the issue. My bet is that you will finish reading and then simply say, "see I told you they were found guilty!"

 

[Vibio]

Right, Bill Williams. That's what I thought.

 

[Vibio]

Vibio,

If witness statements from another trial (at which you were not represented and which was an abbreviated trial) are used against you, have you gotten a fair trial? Same question with respect to the conclusions of such a proceeding.

What did the US State Department (you know, the ones who followed and monitored the trial from the beginning) have to say about whether or not Knox had a fair trial?

 

[NancyS]

What did the US State Department (you know, the ones who followed and monitored the trial from the beginning) have to say about whether or not Knox had a fair trial?

Are you asking whether they have commented following the recent guilty verdict, which was based on facts decided at Guede's trial?

 

[carbonjam72]

FEAR OF PRSECUTION: Why doesn't defense raise these arguments?

Mind if I butt in Coulsdon? I think there is a fairer hearing to be had here than in Italy to be perfectly honest. If you have a claim here you have to back it up or face collective opprobrium. By and large, reason holds sway. Sherlock is unfair and wrong to characterise the thread as a pro-innocence circle-jerk (or whatever the stupid expression is). In Italy, the lawyers are dealing with a legal system that fails to act fairly or reasonably or to respect scientific principles. That places them in a very difficult position. Aside from that, I am not aware off the top of my head of any significant arguments the defence teams have not made that have been run here at JREF. Can you think of any?

Also, look at the fact that Amanda testified about being struck in an illegal unrecorded interrogation, and was charged for slander.

The responsibility for investigating the charge fell to Commodi, a prosecutor in the same case the testimony was given.

If you can't see the direct conflict of interest, and recognize the real criminal jeopardy, including jail time, of simply defending oneself against manifestly illegal conduct by the authorities, then there's not much point in arguing it here.

It's not a fair system when the defense is hamstrung by draconian penalties for raising legitimate issues of defense. And it's a head scratcher that anyone would ask the question, 'gee, why didn't defense raise the same arguments' that can be made outside an environment of thuggery and intimidation.

It's not just "inquisitorial", it is the medieval inquisition in the 21st century, and they have found another 'witch'.

 

[carbonjam72]

Hellman constrained too, ie calumnia

For one, my best sense is that the defense lawyers are well-conditioned to the more dubious aspects of the Italian judicial system, and conduct themselves accordingly. Especially with Knox's attorneys, I don't see much will to fight or risk angering the system. More often than not, a kind of craven deference has seemed to carry the day.

Of course, on the other hand, your post can be seen as baiting, and/or somewhat obtuse. Because, in fact, the Hellmann court, with its reliance on the reasonable and scientifically sound work of Conti and Vecchiotti, often acted as if it had been *cribbing* from the pertinent threads on this site. Of course, I believe that Hellmann represented the only proceedings looking anything like sanity I have yet witnessed in this whole, sordid mess.

Your mileage may vary, of course, but, for once, it would be nice to see you truly engage with this material, rather than settling to ask rather nettling questions which seem to reveal a bias that has thus far rather stubbornly resisted exposing itself to the light of day, and the possibility of being demolished.

Not even Hellman was willing to call the cop's behavior criminal with regard to the illegal interrogations, and held Amanda's imprisonment for 4 years to be just.

The honorable Judge Hellman did what he could, but there were limits to true justice, even for Hellman.

 

[carbonjam72]

Probably because the prosecution were arguing that Meredith's scream was so loud and terrible, it was heard by a hard-of-hearing lady, from a much further distance and through double glazed windows - you can't have it both ways. The people in the car would also have noticed lights on and people running out of the cottage, if that happened as claimed by the prosecution

Also, my understanding is that Nara was sufficiently mentally ill that she was institutionalized in an insane asylum. So, not just hard of hearing.

Curatolo on the other hand, was a much more reliable witness, having been used by Mignini in two other cases.

 

[Desert Fox]

What did the US State Department (you know, the ones who followed and monitored the trial from the beginning) have to say about whether or not Knox had a fair trial?

Why don't you (and Sherlock can play along as well) set out your argument (in your own words) why you think that Amanda Knox and Raffale Sollecito is guilty?
Convince me?
Make it relatively concise but with some details

 

[Magister]

I can assure you I am absolutely correct and I have indeed read the testimony.

22:30-23:30 Car breaks down at the exit of the parking garage across from the cottage. Time approximate. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time and heard no screams or anyone at the cottage. [33]

23:00 Mechanic comes for broken down car. Gianfranco Lombardo was called between 22.30-22.40. He left his house in Bastia and arrived within 15 to 20 minutes. In a previous verbale he had said he arrived at about 11pm. It took him 10 to 15 minutes to load up the car and document it. He finished the job at about 23:15. He noted the gate of via della Pergola was open, and there was a car parked there, probably of a dark color. Parked car belonged to friend of Pasqualino Coletta. Lombardo didn’t see any lights on in the house. He left at the latest at 23:20 and didn’t notice anybody pass by on the road or hear any screams etc.[34]

p62
http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...-Coletta-Salsiccioli-Occhipint-Caccarelli.doc

p119-122
http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...onacchia-Lombardo-Tavernese-Fazio-Galizia.pdf

Do you not think their lawyers would have been saying there was a mysterious unaccounted for parked car outside the cottage the night of the murder OVER AND OVER if there was one?

I am having difficulty seeing where it's said that the friend's car, the blue Citroen, is parked outside the cottage.
Doesn't tie in with the testimony of Occhipinti.

 

[carbonjam72]

US state dept; public vs private positions

What did the US State Department (you know, the ones who followed and monitored the trial from the beginning) have to say about whether or not Knox had a fair trial?

Publicly, or privately?

Publicly? Not much, except to thank the Italian justice system after the appeal acquittal after Amanda was released from prison, and home in the US.

Privately? Take a guess.

Your belief in the fairness of the Italian trial process in this case, seems inconsistent with any traditional notion of fairness.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

let us establish some general principles first

What did the US State Department (you know, the ones who followed and monitored the trial from the beginning) have to say about whether or not Knox had a fair trial?

I did not ask the State Department about the Knox/Sollecito; I asked you two general questions (not specifically about this case but possibly applicable to this case), and I am asking you again: "If witness statements from another trial (at which you were not represented and which was an abbreviated trial) are used against you, have you gotten a fair trial? Same question with respect to the conclusions of such a proceeding."