Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[PixyMisa]

PixyMisa

Very interesting as always. I wish I could commit it all to memory!

Thanks!

The stuff about quantum field theory is something I learned only very recently, from a video dlorde linked earlier in this thread. (I knew some of this before, but had never put the pieces together.)

It's one of the simplest and most remarkable results in science, because the theory explicitly rules out things like souls, spirits, precognition and other psychic powers, and any sort of afterlife. It's no longer just the case that we do not accept the existence of such things because there is no satisfactory evidence; we now know that they cannot possibly exist.

For anyone who missed it:
.

 

[Innocuous]

Remember the first post?

...and no amount of reasoning will be likely to change my mind.

We have strong evidence of that now.

Prove the spirit world does not exist, prove God does not exist.

If you leave this discussion with nothing else, at least understand why it is ridiculous to ask people to disprove such things, instead of you providing evidence for their existence.

 

[Donn]

Pixy's post is an amazing concept, I only wish my mind and memory where up to the task of grokking it. I fear I will never be at ease with science beyond electrons orbiting in shells around a nucleus that looks like a red table-tennis ball on a wooden stick.

 

[mstricky]

^{Strikethrough by Daylightstar}
So according to you the data goes somewhere when the disk is physically destroyed?
The question was where .....

A computer doesn't have a soul, the brain does so when the brain dies its the soul that lives on with all the info accumulated

 

[dlorde]

The stuff about quantum field theory is something I learned only very recently, from a video dlorde linked earlier in this thread. (I knew some of this before, but had never put the pieces together.)

It's one of the simplest and most remarkable results in science, because the theory explicitly rules out things like souls, spirits, precognition and other psychic powers, and any sort of afterlife. It's no longer just the case that we do not accept the existence of such things because there is no satisfactory evidence; we now know that they cannot possibly exist.

For anyone who missed it:
.

Yes, it's an remarkable result that doesn't seem to be getting the wider attention it deserves.

Just to be clear, it doesn't completely rule out the existence of undiscovered forces or particles, but it does absolutely rule out undiscovered forces or particles that are relevant at human scales. i.e. that can have any influence or effect on us.

 

[dlorde]

A computer doesn't have a soul, the brain does so when the brain dies its the soul that lives on with all the info accumulated

No, that's just wishful thinking. Understandable, but empirically wrong.

 

[Innocuous]

...but it does absolutely rule out undiscovered forces or particles that are relevant at human scales. i.e. that can have any influence or effect on us.

That is an important distinction. Also, it doesn't rule out extraordinary things, like telekinesis or telepathy, but it requires that the mechanisms behind any such power must rely on the existing, known forces, and not some mystery force we just haven't detected yet.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

A computer doesn't have a soul, the brain does so when the brain dies its the soul that lives on with all the info accumulated

Proof?

 

[mstricky]

Yes, it's an remarkable result that doesn't seem to be getting the wider attention it deserves.

Just to be clear, it doesn't completely rule out the existence of undiscovered forces or particles, but it does absolutely rule out undiscovered forces or particles that are relevant at human scales. i.e. that can have any influence or effect on us.

What do scientists say about dreams?

 

[Doubt]

That's just rubbish. Gauss it and you get a clean slate.

But you would know this if you were the IT professional that you claim to be. It is odd that you do not. Almost as though that claim of professional credentials were false.

Oh and before you ask the obvious, yes, I am qualified, yes, I have a bucket of letters after my name, yes, these have been provided on this very site for all to see and yes, your lack of knowledge is also plain to see.

You could learn. Do you want to?

I think you and Scorpion are not discussing the same things. Yes, a disk can be wiped by a magnetic field. But "overwriting" could just be a reference to quick formatting, which does not remove much data from a disk other than the index.

Also claiming to have a background in electronics and microprocessors is not the same as being an IT professional. More likely and electronics tech or possibly an EE. Maybe just a hobbyist playing with Arduino.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

What do scientists say about dreams?

You know, there is something out there called "Google".

 

[dlorde]

That is an important distinction. Also, it doesn't rule out extraordinary things, like telekinesis or telepathy, but it requires that the mechanisms behind any such power must rely on the existing, known forces, and not some mystery force we just haven't detected yet.

Yes, which means that telekinesis and telepathy don't exist.

 

[dlorde]

What do scientists say about dreams?

Here you go:

The Overinterpretation of Dreams.

 

[mstricky]

Here you go:

The Overinterpretation of Dreams.

Thanks very interesting

Fast Eddie B perhaps we should all just post links and cut out all debate then?

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Fast Eddie B perhaps we should all just post links and cut out all debate then?

Nope.

Perfectly happy to debate and opine.

But when you ask non-experts a question, its perfectly reasonable for them to point you to a better source.

But that's just them doing research you could easily do yourself.

 

[dlorde]

... when you ask non-experts a question, its perfectly reasonable for them to point you to a better source.

But that's just them doing research you could easily do yourself.

Very true. Just Googling 'science of dreams' gives plenty of good quality information. It would be nice if these forums were more often discussing questions and opinions based on or following up some prior reading online.

 

[Scorpion]

And as I've noted, this is exactly the theory that allows us to build modern computers and the internet. If the theory were wrong, we would not be having this conversation.

It is my experience that the spirit world exists, therefore there must be undetectable, higher particles.
But all that aside the only particles needed to work computers are electrons, which come from unstable atoms that can be acted upon by various components. All a computer does is switch on and off millions of logic gates very fast. It is using the same electron flow as a light bulb, but in a more sophisticated way.

 

[Doubt]

It is my experience that the spirit world exists, therefore there must be undetectable, higher particles.

Personal experience is very weak evidence. You would need to consider alternate explanations starting with examining your own fallibility. If you could rule that out, then you still need to consider other explanations that you have not attempted to rule out. Such as mundane use of other "particles" that are already known.

In any event, if such "higher particles" were there and doing what you think they are, then they are interacting with the physical world and not really paranormal. And that would make them detectable via their interaction with the rest of the physical world.

But all that aside the only particles needed to work computers are electrons, which come from unstable atoms that can be acted upon by various components. All a computer does is switch on and off millions of logic gates very fast. It is using the same electron flow as a light bulb, but in a more sophisticated way.

And with that we can establish that you do not understand the physics behind solid state electronics. The doped crystal structures are quite stable. The atoms sit there quite nicely and really don't change other than the extra or missing electron.

 

[Max_mang]

Everybody has premonitions. I've had many myself. A few happen to come true, and are remembered. The rest don't, and are forgotten. The question is: is the percentage that come true greater than would be expected to be the case by chance?

You say the voice told you you had won the lottery, and you had 5 numbers come up. Would you still have considered the premonition true if only 4 numbers had come up? That's a win too, right? How about three numbers?

About 30 million Saturday lottery tickets are sold every week. There is about a 1 in 54 chance of winning something, and a 1 in 55,000 chance of having 5 numbers correct. That means on average there are about half a million winners of whom over 500 people have 5 numbers correct every single week. Is it really so astonishing that you happened to be one of the latter that particular week?

No single lottery win could ever be evidence of the paranormal, even if it is preceded by a premonition. Now if you got these messages regularly and each time you were a winner, then you could begin to build a case that there is something extraordinary going on. But this turns out to be just what you're told not to expect to happen. Neither do I expect it to happen, for different reasons.

Just reposting this because the lottery win seems to have been a major factor in Scorpion's beliefs and he seems to have ignored this post. Also, this may be the most clear, down to earth and practical post in this entire discussion.

 

[Donn]

Not to mention the number of times he hears voices* and nothing memorable happens.

*He's mentioned that he is slightly schizophrenic. icbw.