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Total Building Collapse from a Single Column Failure

It sounds like even though you don't have a viable collapse initiation mechanism, with the NIST WTC 7 report structural feature omissions nullifying their explanation, you just want to say "fire did it" and be done with it. Is that an accurate portrayal of your point of view?

No, that's not accurate.

I never said the NIST can't be wrong. Like said above, none of us have x-ray vision and/or a time machine. That's why I used the word ultimately.

Ultimately, what do YOU think was the cause of 7WTC's collapse?

Why won't you answer this simple question? 56 pages in and you hide behind minutia. What's your agenda here? Do you really think there's thousands of lurkers that you're swaying with your "brilliance"? Your ideas are foolish and posting them here only exposes them for the bunk that they are.

:)
 
So, according to TSz, dust must emanate from specific windows not just previously broken ones.

:rolleyes:

No dust emanates from any windows on the north face, yet the NIST WTC 7 report claims the entire east side interior has collapsed to cause the east penthouse fall.

This claim is ridiculous and how you can argue the point is beyond me.
 
Yet somehow we are expected to believe that arson is then the only alternative when absolutely no evidence exists to support it? Now THAT'S ridiculous
 
Yet somehow we are expected to believe that arson is then the only alternative when absolutely no evidence exists to support it? Now THAT'S ridiculous

And this is getting back to the crux of the matter, which I have pushed Tony on repeatedly and gotten no answer. Tony, even if you somehow disproved NIST, "arsonists did it" does not become the default hypothesis. You have absolutely no affirmative evidence proving arson, all you have is implication and innuendo supposedly disproving the "official story".
 
And this is getting back to the crux of the matter, which I have pushed Tony on repeatedly and gotten no answer. Tony, even if you somehow disproved NIST, "arsonists did it" does not become the default hypothesis. You have absolutely no affirmative evidence proving arson, all you have is implication and innuendo supposedly disproving the "official story".
He uses his real name. :rolleyes:
 
And this is getting back to the crux of the matter, which I have pushed Tony on repeatedly and gotten no answer. Tony, even if you somehow disproved NIST, "arsonists did it" does not become the default hypothesis. You have absolutely no affirmative evidence proving arson, all you have is implication and innuendo supposedly disproving the "official story".

I asked something similar to this several times and as far as I can tell from reading back on the thread he's consciously avoiding anything that has a hairs' mention of "CD" as a discussion. For this exchange over the last 20 pages his entire MO has been to cast doubt on the NIST report and cast people who doubt what he's deemed "fatal" to the WTC7 NIST report as partisan. Hell if you explain to him why arson for example is untenable, it gets ignored and he casts your unwillingness to give credence to his assertions as blind faith. It's basically avoiding the more controversial explanations in order to sound like the theory somehow has a bearing on the discussion and has more implied impact. I don't see how it does, but I stopped trying to wrap my head around it.

His two base assertions are:
- NIST omitted certain details, rendering the "col 79 collapse initiation mechanism" invalid
- Fire must have been started by some something other than the collapse of the buildings

The extent of the argument he feels is important is that the above invalidates the NIST and they need to do some new investigation and analysis. But when pressed about where the discussion goes if one accepts this, he concludes his assertions are "set in stone" and moves to some other "detail" to continue shrouding the report with doubt so as to avoid directly stating a position he's been pretty open about in the past.

He's treating his assertions as unfalsifiable, and as long as that's the case, no amount of correcting will resolve the exchange. At the end of the day he will continue to claim the NIST is "wrong" and people should be JAQ'ing off. That people should be "questioning" the NIST's legitimacy without him having to say a word about any other conclusion he would support.

This is the same thing as the missing jolt, there are fatal assumptions in his argument, but as long as he can keep the discussion aimed at perceived important details he can keep the gears turning without worrying about his fatal premise being challenged, and when it does get challenged.... he ignores it. That's been sort of a trend for several years already.

Another probability is he generally doesn't care that skeptics reject "CD". If he can cast enough of an impression about his critics being partisan in the discussion he might be able to turn that against them to claim that such partisanship is the driving reason behind lack of acceptance of "CD" as opposed to lack of evidence. Seen enough of that in the past with other posters pushing the idea.


Another way of putting this is:
If we weren't feeding this cycle of evasion, this thread might have been spared from 20 pages of wasted discussion time. And this kind of explanation kind of states the obvious. Not that I'm really qualified to act as the critic for that seeing as I've contributed to it too. :rolleyes:
 
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And this is getting back to the crux of the matter, which I have pushed Tony on repeatedly and gotten no answer. Tony, even if you somehow disproved NIST, "arsonists did it" does not become the default hypothesis. You have absolutely no affirmative evidence proving arson, all you have is implication and innuendo supposedly disproving the "official story".

If the official story has been shown to lack credibility, and it has been, then it needs to be reconsidered and a new investigation performed.
 
If the official story has been shown to lack credibility, and it has been, then it needs to be reconsidered and a new investigation performed.
So, it's the opinion of a group with no credibility that the consensus of all those with credibility lacks credibility. Seems even more silly when you type it out. :rolleyes:
 
If the official story has been shown to lack credibility, and it has been, then it needs to be reconsidered and a new investigation performed.

Except you have no alternative hypothesis that deals with all of the available evidence. Why should we reconsider anything aside from a few unimportant details when you haven't done the same?
 
So, it's the opinion of a group with no credibility that the consensus of all those with credibility lacks credibility. Seems even more silly when you type it out. :rolleyes:
Yes - it does - like most truther nonsense when explicitly spelled out. But I like the theme so let's continue it

...AND
The group with no credibility claims that the group with credibility is wrong but the group with no credibility cannot say why
AND
The group with no credibility insists that the group with credibility has to show why the arguments from the group with no credibility are wrong...
...when it is the responsibility of the group with no credibility to prove their false claims
...and the group with no credibility has not presented any arguments worthy of testing or assessment
AND
the group with credibility has many times shown why the bits of claim actually asserted by the group with no credibility are wrong as individual bits
AND
the group with credibility has many times shown that the bits put forward by the group with no credibility don't add up to a whole
AND
the group with credibility has identified false assumptions which the group with no credibility has not supported or even attempted to show as valid. And those foundation errors identified by the group with credibility are each individually fatal to the claims of the group with no credibility.


PS blame DGM - he started it. :rolleyes:

:boxedin:
 
This pretty good Ozzie... sums up the absurdity of these "debates". Ships passing in the night...
 
If the official story has been shown to lack credibility, and it has been, then it needs to be reconsidered and a new investigation performed.
Oh man, the official story is what happened on 911. 19 terrorists did 911, and your fantasy...
The controlled demolition hypothesis appears to be the only realistic and sustainable explanation (realcddeal fantasy)
... made up out of thin air, and instead of 19 nuts doing 911, you have all your political enemies doing 911, which you can't name. How many did it?


Your work lacks credibility - look at your work, as you use a theologian to guide what you try to pass off as work from an engineer.
The physical evidence for the first theory, controlled demolition, is due to the characteristics of the twin tower collapses. In one of his many writings on the subject of Sept. 11, 2001, Dr. David Ray Griffin lists the eleven characteristics of controlled demolition, which both of the towers exhibited in their respective collapses.

Sudden Onset
Dust Clouds
Molten Steel
Straight Down
Horizontal Ejections
Sliced Steel
Almost Free-Fall Speed
Sounds Produced by Explosions
Demolition Rings
Total Collapse
Pulverization of Concrete and Other Materials

Dr. Griffin’s full article ‘The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True”
You take nonsense from a nut who makes up lies to sell books, and use it in your paper of woo. A nut who acts like a paranoid conspiracy theorist, which helps him sell books to, yep, paranoid conspiracy theorists.

You are stuck with believing ...
The controlled demolition hypothesis appears to be the only realistic and sustainable explanation (realcddeal fantasy)
... based on nothing.

Collapse due to a single failure is more likely than your real CD deal. Better luck with the next JFK, Flt 800, or the next event you can twist to fit your fantasy paranoid world.
 
The statement you bolded, concerning the omitted structural features making the NIST WTC 7 report alleged collapse initiation failure modes impossible, is not false. You are proving my point, that you are not a skeptic, by saying it is.


Swing and a miss .... the "omitted structural features" were not PERTINENT and thus did not make the failure mode impossible.
As much as you whine about it.....your claim is a failure.
 
I am saying the NIST explanation is not valid and that we don't have a viable explanation.


That is not quite accurate. You are saying that NIST had the initiation mechanism wrong because of a web stiffener, and therefore it was arsonists and silent explosives that removed X number of floors. I agree with the second part of your statement; your explanation is not viable.
 
None of the video from the north shows any dust emanating from the east side windows of the north face before or during the collapse of the east penthouse, which was on the north side of the roof. There does not appear to be any collapsing floors lower in the building the way the NIST WTC 7 report claims.

So?

Weren't there broken windows on the North East area of WTC7?
Wouldn't resulting dust from collapsing floors more easily escape through these open holes, instead of creating new ones in previously intact windows?
 
To celebrate more years of futile argument (mea culpa, mea maxima culpa) I offer you this TS gem which today celebrates its 2nd anniversary:

"The NIST report states that the east penthouse was a shelter for heavy equipment. They don't say how heavy.

What can be said is that it was a heavy eccentric load and would cause a propensity for a topple once the columns below let go. Additionally, it would have to initially cause an out of plumbness when the columns below let go and that would become a sort of p-delta effect causing more moment arm and increasing the propensity for a rotation about the center of gravity of the falling mass or what is colloquially called a topple. "

Dear FSM :rolleyes:
 
So?

Weren't there broken windows on the North East area of WTC7?
Wouldn't resulting dust from collapsing floors more easily escape through these open holes, instead of creating new ones in previously intact windows?

You seem to be missing the point that "no dust emanated out of any windows" before and during the east penthouse collapse, which is when the NIST WTC 7 report says the entire east side interior fell.
 

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