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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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...Sadly, most of us won't be seeing the "end of the story" and will be long gone when the predictions do or don't come true. Those yet to be born will be better handing any of these issue themselves.

And you will not be remembered fondly, but rather as the selfish generation that despoiled the planet with their greed and refused to take personal responsibility for their short-sighted and self-centered practices. Preferring to shuffle this debt and expense upon their heirs depending on tax dollars to earn their profits, frittered away on extravagant toys for a privileged few while most spent their lives working for nothing but a shallow and markerless grave.


...Anybody know one of those doom and gloom predictions that did come true and made it beyond the "might" "could" stage?

Hansen's paper 1981

Overlap of paper graph and latest NASA surface temp data

picture.php

You are right climate science has tended to underestimate the true effects and impacts that are actually occurring, their models are evidently too conservative in their estimations of the problem and impacts.
 
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For anyone interested in the actual predictions made by climate science, I once again recommend the American Institutes of Physics, free online hypertext version of the history of The Discovery of Global Warming. Modern era (1970s - present) predictions and explanations are towards the bottom of this page.
 
Including the California drought ....blocking highs.

Natural variability alone cannot explain the extreme weather pattern that has driven both the record-setting California drought and the cooler weather seen in the Midwest and East this winter, a major new study finds.
We’ve reported before that climate scientists had predicted a decade ago that warming-driven Arctic ice loss would lead to worsening drought in California. In particular, they predicted it would lead to a “blocking pattern” that would shift the jet stream (and the rain it could bring) away from the state — in this case a “Ridiculously Resilient Ridge” of high pressure.
A new study in Geophysical Research Letters (subs. req’d) takes the warming link to the California drought to the next level of understanding. It concludes, “there is a traceable anthropogenic warming footprint in the enormous intensity of the anomalous ridge during winter 2013-14, the associated drought and its intensity.”

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/04/15/3426810/california-drought-climate-change/

There are hundreds of others in a wide variety of fields that are now coming to unfortunate fruition.

Always with forward projection the big variable is human emissions...the US dropped 11% last year. mostly due to replacing coal with natural gas....that kind of shift in forcing cannot be predicted so "ranges of outcomes" are specified that take into account natural variations within the global geosystems and a best guess on emissions.
Hansen did very well given the state of the science in 1981 and it appears he underestimated climate sensitivity...new papers have confirmed ( unfortunately ) that the climate range of sensitivity is higher than determined earlier ( there is still much to be done in this area but all evidence is pointing to a higher rather than lower sensitivity )

Another "hard to call" is SO2 and aerosols ( Asian Brown cloud and global dimming ) which slows AGw by reflecting sunlight away from the surface.

You would know this is you read the science instead of the right wing rags. You ARE in a educational science forum after all.....some sense of how the world actually works is desirable.

AB ...climate scientists are by and large practical people with their feet planted....not greenies with luddite mentalities.
If you polled people in this forum ( and it has been done ) you would find 80% plus in favour of nuclear energy for instance.
There are scientists and engineers in this forum and even in this long running thread. Fluffy headed nonsense from greens or AGW deniers does not cut it here.

Swedes are very sensible industrious people and they are well on their way to a carbon neutral industrial nation by 2050.
They lead the world in that regard and are second in the world in competitiveness so your nonsense about a retun to the 18th century is just that ....misplaced fear mongering.

And 18th century industry on today's population base can be seen in China where Beijing is choking.
China knows the score, does not deny AGW and is pouring 100's of billions into reducing and cleaning up coal use.

26+ nuclear reactors on the go, massive hydro ( 3 Gorges ), the worlds largest solar facility and stiffer vehicle mileage standards than North America.
They have to or perish in the millions from the ravages of dirty air and a shifting climate.

Europeans have vehicle fleet mileage with 50 mpg versus 25 in the US.
I drove 700 miles on in a very luxurious SUV on 42 Euros of diesel....on a single tank.
I can't do that in my van here and I was not exactly going slow either...freeway speeds are MUCH higher there.....fast lane is 100 mph plus in some areas and even then I'd get passed by a TDi doing 20 mph more or a Mercedes or Porche even higher.
Why is Noth America so backward???
We can have a clean carbon neutral industrial civilization....you aren't helping getting there...

The first world nations are by large ignoring you and even many developing nations.
Your meme is a failed one.....time to move on.
 
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So funny. Love it. IMO, everything supporting or attacking each viewpoint has been said over, and over and over. Charts, stats, polar bear on an ice drift which they do and have done forever and can swim, has been thrown at each other. Time to see what happens, although trying to hide the decline for almost 17 years has not helped the warmer cause or those emails. In any event, right now today I don't think any of those dire predications have been realized. I mean glaciers advance, retreat and calve. It's what they do and Greenland still got over a mile plus of ice sheets in most areas. Just my thoughts and Big Al Gore still owns ocean front property. Is there anyone on earth that does not know if you live by the water some day you will see you house floating away? Sometime it is a couple of miles from the water.
Sadly, most of us won't be seeing the "end of the story" and will be long gone when the predictions do or don't come true. Those yet to be born will be better handing any of these issue themselves. Right now, today we need clean water for all. The south west has always been about drought, fire and floods. Nothing new there.
Anybody know one of those doom and gloom predictions that did come true and made it beyond the "might" "could" stage?

That's quite a Gish Gallop of nonsense. Care to pick just one and offer it as your strongest argument against AGW?
 
If Lindzen is so brilliant why can't he get a paper published or even let go of ideas that were debunked 2 decades ago?

He can't, because he can't actually say. He did publish this, which is amazing, since all he claims is that his opinion is that there could be an iris effect, although he has no actual evidence of it.
http://eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/adinfriris.pdf
 
And ever has it been so. Nothing new there. It's a wild, unpredictable world out there and always has been. Glaciers melt, grow and calve grow since time eternal.

In predictable ways. Now they are behaving differently, in ways predicted by climatologists.

Crops have always been ruined and flourished cept during the Ice Age when nothing grow at all.

For predictable reasons. Those reasons are now related to climate change.

Where are the massive population relocations except for everyone wanting to come to a first world society?

Well, they're not in your kitchen. You may have to reach out and read about them in the scientific literature, like here.

People rebuild near the water all the time after storms and hurricanes. Its what they do. Yep, some folk choose to live in low lying areas that flood on occasion.

So when new areas encounter conditions that aren't normal, there's nothing to worry about because "they shouldn't build close to water"? Do you understand how many people in the world live close to the sea? Should all of them just move? Are you going to pay for their move and make sure they can eat?

ETA: ABC, if you're just trolling, kindly do it elsewhere. All your PRATTS have been dealt with already, and if you have nothing new to offer, you should probably pull up a chair and just listen. It is certain to do you good.
 
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And you will not be remembered fondly, but rather as the selfish generation that despoiled the planet with their greed and refused to take personal responsibility for their short-sighted and self-centered practices. Preferring to shuffle this debt and expense upon their heirs depending on tax dollars to earn their profits, frittered away on extravagant toys for a privileged few while most spent their lives working for nothing but a shallow and markerless grave.




Hansen's paper 1981

Overlap of paper graph and latest NASA surface temp data

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=839&pictureid=8767[/qimg]​

You are right climate science has tended to underestimate the true effects and impacts that are actually occurring, their models are evidently too conservative in their estimations of the problem and impacts.
Looks like Hansen failed to predict the coming oil and gas booms (Non fossil replacement - OUCH!!) and the miracle of fracking. Ah, them models didn't either so can't rely on them. Actually, within a relatively short period of time, none of us will be remembered. Just names on a stone.
 
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In predictable ways. Now they are behaving differently, in ways predicted by climatologists.



For predictable reasons. Those reasons are now related to climate change.



Well, they're not in your kitchen. You may have to reach out and read about them in the scientific literature, like here.



So when new areas encounter conditions that aren't normal, there's nothing to worry about because "they shouldn't build close to water"? Do you understand how many people in the world live close to the sea? Should all of them just move? Are you going to pay for their move and make sure they can eat?

ETA: ABC, if you're just trolling, kindly do it elsewhere. All your PRATTS have been dealt with already, and if you have nothing new to offer, you should probably pull up a chair and just listen. It is certain to do you good.
Nope, not trolling. Just an everyday citizen with a different opinion.
 
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I love Big Oil, Big Gas and Big Electricity. I am grateful for the light in the darkness, gas in the car and heat in the cold. It's a miracle. .

It’s science that makes those things possible not oil companies so your choice of oil companies over science is nonsensical.

Now are you going to answer any of the questions you have been asked in the last several pages or are you just going to continue your gish gallop though all the stupid talking points you have been fed?
 
Looks like Hansen failed to predict the coming oil and gas booms (Non fossil replacement - OUCH!!) and the miracle of fracking. Ah, them models didn't either so can't rely on them. Actually, within a relatively short period of time, none of us will be remembered. Just names on a stone.

Probably the reason for why the problem is worse than anticipated.
 
Nope, not trolling. Just an everyday citizen with a different opinion.

This is the science forum. Here you are expected to either have a science based opinion, or to not have an opinion. Your opinion is ideological in nature, and anti-science. Why are you here?
 
He can't, because he can't actually say. He did publish this, which is amazing, since all he claims is that his opinion is that there could be an iris effect, although he has no actual evidence of it.
http://eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/adinfriris.pdf

While I get your tongue in cheek tone, I have to point out that paper is 13 years old and the iris effect had been discarded as possibility by mainstream science a decade before that because it would have made recovery from a glaciations impossible.

I suppose that may not be an issue for someone with creationist leanings. While I don’t know if Lindzen does himself he does collaborate with people like Spencer and Christy who certainly do lean that way.
 
Looks like Hansen failed to predict the coming oil and gas booms (Non fossil replacement - OUCH!!) and the miracle of fracking. Ah, them models didn't either so can't rely on them. Actually, within a relatively short period of time, none of us will be remembered. Just names on a stone.

:confused: Hansen might have wanted fossil fuels to be phased out but he has a line in there for fossil fuel usage increasing continuously.
 
Looks like Hansen failed to predict the coming oil and gas booms
Scenario A (High emissions) more than accounts for current GHG emissions. Hansen et al couldn't predict how the global economy would develop after 1988 (the growth of China, for instance, was a surprise to just about everybody) so the model was run for High, Medium and Low emission trajectories. Scenario B most closely matches actual events.

... and the miracle of fracking.
Fracking isn't a miracle, it's a technique developed by engineers on a foundation of scientific theory and research. It didn't derive from a Eureka moment when somebody pissed down a dry well and suddenly up came a gusher.

Things don't just happen. Things are caused, sometimes deliberately by an intelligent agency. They may look like magic or luck to the ignorant but that's their problem (and sometimes our opportunity, so let's not knock it).

Actually, within a relatively short period of time, none of us will be remembered.
Well, you might be; Darwin Awards are forever and you seem to be a candidate in search of an opportunity.
 
And you will not be remembered fondly, but rather as the selfish generation that despoiled the planet with their greed and refused to take personal responsibility for their short-sighted and self-centered practices.
To be fair that's ony because they had the opportunity. I'm sure previous generations would have done the same if they'd been able.
 
Opinions are like belly buttons.. everyone has one, and you may think yours is very nice, but just because you have one doesn't mean anyone else will think it is important.
Absolutely. A plain, ordinary, common, everyday, garden variety button shmoo.
 
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To be fair that's ony because they had the opportunity. I'm sure previous generations would have done the same if they'd been able.
Previous generations were living with low technology and medicine. Too busy trying to feed and water themselves, while staying alive to 50.
 
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