• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've been reading about the literature of the 1st century and here's a blog which compares elements of contemporary literature with the Jesus story
vridar.org/2009/12/27/popular-novels-behind-the-gospels/

""Innocent heroes, betrayals, unjust judges, crucifixions, patient endurance, empty tombs, faith in the gods to deliver . . . . They are all as much the stuff of ancient popular fiction as they are of the canonical gospels."

There's a great deal more in the blog.

Again, we have writings attributed to Philo, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius, comtemporaries of the 1st century, and their writings do not contain the vast amount of total fiction and implausibility from beginning to end like the NT.

The stories of Jesus match the myth fables of the Jews, Greeks, and Romans.

Suetonius' "Life of the 12 Caesars" are excellent examples of how biographies were composed in antiquity.

Plutarch "Romulus" is an excellent example of Mythology.

The biographies of Jesus in the NT match Plutarch's "Romulus".
 
Last edited:
Again, we have writings attributed to Philo, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius, comtemporaries of the 1st century, and their writings do not contain the vast amount of total fiction and implausibility from beginning to end like the NT.

The stories of Jesus match the myth fables of the Jews, Greeks, and Romans.

Suetonius' "Life of the 12 Caesars" are excellent examples of how biographies were composed in antiquity.

Plutarch "Romulus" is an excellent example of Mythology.

The biographies of Jesus in the NT match Plutarch's "Romulus".

Is this another example of a "cogent" argument?

I suppose it could be, if "cogent" now means "worthless".

Well done for once again showing that the Mythicist position is based on ignorance and bias.
 
dejudge said:
Again, we have writings attributed to Philo, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius, comtemporaries of the 1st century, and their writings do not contain the vast amount of total fiction and implausibility from beginning to end like the NT.

The stories of Jesus match the myth fables of the Jews, Greeks, and Romans.

Suetonius' "Life of the 12 Caesars" are excellent examples of how biographies were composed in antiquity.

Plutarch "Romulus" is an excellent example of Mythology.

The biographies of Jesus in the NT match Plutarch's "Romulus".


Is this another example of a "cogent" argument?

I suppose it could be, if "cogent" now means "worthless".

Well done for once again showing that the Mythicist position is based on ignorance and bias.

Your post is useless and irrelevant since you admit Paul was a Liar but still use Galatians 1.19 at face value.

The Pauline writers are WITHOUT corroboration outside Apologetics and the Pauline Corpus is riddled with forgeries, false attribution, fiction and implausibilty.

It is extremely bizarre that you would take Galatatians 1.19 as history at face value when Apologetics themselves admitted Galatians 1.19 is in error.

The Pauline Epistles are the very worst kind of sources to argue for an historical Jesus.

The Pauline writers admitted their Jesus was NOT a man.
 
Your post is useless and irrelevant since you admit Paul was a Liar but still use Galatians 1.19 at face value.

The Pauline writers are WITHOUT corroboration outside Apologetics and the Pauline Corpus is riddled with forgeries, false attribution, fiction and implausibilty.

It is extremely bizarre that you would take Galatatians 1.19 as history at face value when Apologetics themselves admitted Galatians 1.19 is in error.

The Pauline Epistles are the very worst kind of sources to argue for an historical Jesus.

The Pauline writers admitted their Jesus was NOT a man.

Even a liar has to acknowledge the people who he interacts with. How could Paul be lying about James to his audience who already know about James?

Your posts never present anything other than simple declarative statements. If you want to convince people of your case, you have to produce your reasoning in some kind of logical form. You can't expect people to change their minds based on nothing more than your opinion.

Let's see a factual and logically coherent argument for how Christianity got started based on your "fake hoax forgery" hypothesis...

That would be, er, cogent.
 
Even a liar has to acknowledge the people who he interacts with. How could Paul be lying about James to his audience who already know about James?

You have already admitted Paul was a Liar.

Over 1500 years ago, Writers of antiquity like Hierocles and Macarius Magnes have discovered that Paul was a Liar and that he grew up in an atmosphere of lying.

Chrysostom, Jerome and others admitted the Apostle James was NOT the brother of the Son of God.

Brainache said:
Your posts never present anything other than simple declarative statements. If you want to convince people of your case, you have to produce your reasoning in some kind of logical form. You can't expect people to change their minds based on nothing more than your opinion.

Your posts are irrelevant simple sentences without a shred of evidence for your HJ.

Brainache said:
Let's see a factual and logically coherent argument for how Christianity got started based on your "fake hoax forgery" hypothesis...

That would be, er, cogent.

Let's see the evidence that Galatians 1.19 is history.

Your HJ is a hoax because you cannot present the actual contemporary evidence.

I challenge you to present the actual recovered pre 70 CE evidence for your HJ.

I declare your HJ an established Hoax because you have never presented any actual comtemporary evidence.

You knew in advance of posting that you would not be able to support your HJ argument.

Unless, there is NEW evidence your HJ is a hoax--always without known contemporary evidence.
 
Last edited:
I've been reading about the literature of the 1st century and here's a blog which compares elements of contemporary literature with the Jesus story
vridar.org/2009/12/27/popular-novels-behind-the-gospels/

""Innocent heroes, betrayals, unjust judges, crucifixions, patient endurance, empty tombs, faith in the gods to deliver . . . . They are all as much the stuff of ancient popular fiction as they are of the canonical gospels."

There's a great deal more in the blog.

Again, we have writings attributed to Philo, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius, comtemporaries of the 1st century, and their writings do not contain the vast amount of total fiction and implausibility from beginning to end like the NT.

The stories of Jesus match the myth fables of the Jews, Greeks, and Romans.

Suetonius' "Life of the 12 Caesars" are excellent examples of how biographies were composed in antiquity.

Plutarch "Romulus" is an excellent example of Mythology.

The biographies of Jesus in the NT match Plutarch's "Romulus".

This confused me a bit, Dejudge.
Pakeha was relaying ideas about the texts being fiction due to sharing similar properties with other known fictional literature of the period.

I'm not really sure how your comment is to be understood.
 
This confused me a bit, Dejudge.
Pakeha was relaying ideas about the texts being fiction due to sharing similar properties with other known fictional literature of the period.

I'm not really sure how your comment is to be understood.

There is no need to be confused just read any of the 12 biographies of the Caesars by Suetonius and examine the 4 biographies of Jesus in the Canon.

It is easily found that the biographies of Jesus are NOT historical accounts.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Tiberius*.html
 
You have already admitted Paul was a Liar.

Over 1500 years ago, Writers of antiquity like Hierocles and Macarius Magnes have discovered that Paul was a Liar and that he grew up in an atmosphere of lying.

Chrysostom, Jerome and others admitted the Apostle James was NOT the brother of the Son of God.



Your posts are irrelevant simple sentences without a shred of evidence for your HJ.



Let's see the evidence that Galatians 1.19 is history.

Your HJ is a hoax because you cannot present the actual contemporary evidence.

I challenge you to present the actual recovered pre 70 CE evidence for your HJ.

I declare your HJ an established Hoax because you have never presented any actual comtemporary evidence.

You knew in advance of posting that you would not be able to support your HJ argument.

Unless, there is NEW evidence your HJ is a hoax--always without known contemporary evidence.

I'll take that as a "no" then.

You can't present a logically coherent account of how your "Forged Fake Hoax" idea might actually work in the real world.

Oh well, at least you tried.

Back to the drawing board for you, I suppose...
 
dejudge said:
Let's see the evidence that Galatians 1.19 is history.

Your HJ is a hoax because you cannot present the actual contemporary evidence.

I challenge you to present the actual recovered pre 70 CE evidence for your HJ.

I declare your HJ an established Hoax because you have never presented any actual comtemporary evidence.

You knew in advance of posting that you would not be able to support your HJ argument.

Unless, there is NEW evidence your HJ is a hoax--always without known contemporary evidence.


I'll take that as a "no" then.

You can't present a logically coherent account of how your "Forged Fake Hoax" idea might actually work in the real world.

Oh well, at least you tried.

Back to the drawing board for you, I suppose...


Again, your simple sentences have nothing in them.

I have sources of antiquity that singled out Paul as a Liar.


Eusebius' Against Hierocles
.....the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,--men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards



Macarius Magnes' Apocritus
We conclude then that he is a liar and manifestly brought up in an atmosphere of lying

The Pauline writings are NOT credible.
 
Last edited:
There is no need to be confused just read any of the 12 biographies of the Caesars by Suetonius and examine the 4 biographies of Jesus in the Canon.

It is easily found that the biographies of Jesus are NOT historical accounts.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Tiberius*.html
Right, and pakeha's comment sypathizes with that, which is why your comment against his comment is confusing.

His comment is basically akin to 'Jesus stories are fiction'.
Then you disagreed by citing that Jesus stories are fiction.

Did you think his comment was for the chronicle position?
 
Last edited:
Again, your simple sentences have nothing in them.

I have sources of antiquity that singled out Paul as a Liar.


Eusebius' Against Hierocles



Macarius Magnes' Apocritus

The Pauline writings are NOT credible.

So put it together for us all dejudge.

How does your "fake hoax forgery" theory work in the real world?

What happened when?

Can you give us a timeline for how it all happened?
 
So put it together for us all dejudge.

How does your "fake hoax forgery" theory work in the real world?

What happened when?

Can you give us a timeline for how it all happened?

Bart Ehrman has already admitted the Gospels are Fake.

He also admitted the Gospels and NT are filled with discrepancies, events that most likely did NOT happen and other historical problems.

Bart Ehrman also declared that at least 18 books of the NT have FAKE authors

In other words, the Jesus in the NT is a Hoax.

Your HJ argument is based on the idea that NT Jesus is a Hoax.

But, you have a major problem. Your HJ is just as un-evidence as NT Jesus.

Your HJ was derived from the "biography" of Hoax Jesus in the NT.

Hoax Jesus, the Lord, is YOUR HJ in Galatians 1.19.
You believe Your LORD Jesus was a man when Paul admitted he was NOT.

Your Lord Jesus is an established Hoax.

Galatians 1:1 KJV
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Your Lord Jesus in Galatians 1.19 NEVER existed.
 
Last edited:
Dejudge already addressed the absence of presenting anthropological arguments quite a while ago, so I don't think your query will be satisfied Brainache.

Dejudge pointed out, previously, that he doesn't need to supply such an argument for his position.
 
Dejudge already addressed the absence of presenting anthropological arguments quite a while ago, so I don't think your query will be satisfied Brainache.

Dejudge pointed out, previously, that he doesn't need to supply such an argument for his position.

That is unfortunate. He is denying everyone else the obvious benefits that come with such knowledge.

He is denying us the knowledge that he uses to berate us.

Please stop berating us and start educating us in your profound understanding of the Ancient World dejudge. Otherwise we will forever be stuck with an HJ that merely seems Historically plausible, instead of your 100% certain Myth "fake hoax forgery" Jesus.

Don't you care about us?
 
Ian,

Why would Jesus' physical body have medical issues of the era, yet the figure be capable of healing any and every affliction placed in front of him without much effort at all, including raising others from death?

One would have to produce some exotic excuses.

I don't think that's as easy to dismiss as not ever finding a body, for the latter permits any injected claim, while the former greatly reduces the options.


The current day Christian church would not have to think up any new “exotic excuses” beyond what they already claim and what is easily found in the bible (NT and OT). I have just tried to explain at length why that is.

To repeat -

- without checking the exact words and providing the exact quotes (which we have had before anyway), I'm sure you know very well that you can quite easily find passages in the bibles about Christ existing from before time and before creation of the Earth, as Gods heavenly Son … where God then creates the earth and humans in fleshy mortal form, which is not the form that God and his Son have in the 7th layer of heaven … and where the Christ adopts a human fleshy form when appearing on earth amongst humans etc.

That is, as I say, what Doherty and Carrier have apparently been describing at very great length in several books. But if you argued that skeletal remains of Jesus showed human injuries, then that is only injury to the mortal flesh which is just an assumed form for Jesus on earth (but where he is really the heavenly spiritual Son of God).


As to David and 1000 BCE; Huddlestun even points out the same information I was referring to.



I don’t know what words you are referring to from Huddlestun re, David, but here for example is what Wikipedia says about the dates for David -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

David (/ˈdeɪvɪd/; Hebrew: דָּוִד, דָּוִיד, Modern David Tiberian Dāwîḏ; ISO 259-3 Dawid; Arabic: داود‎ Dāwūd; Syriac: ܕܘܝܕ Dawid; Strong's Daveed) was, according to the Bible, the second king of the United Kingdom of Israel and Judah, and according to the New TestamentGospels of Matthew and Luke, an ancestor of Jesus. His life is conventionally dated to c. 1040–970 BC, his reign over Judah c. 1010–1002 BC, and his reign over the United Kingdom c. 1002–970 BC.[1]
The Books of Samuel, 1 Kings, and 1 Chronicles are the only sources of information on David, although the Tel Dan Stele (dated c. 850–835 BC) contains the phrase בית דוד (Beit David), read as "House of David", which most scholars take as confirmation of the existence in the mid-9th century BC of a Judean royal dynasty called the House of David.[2]




That says, he lived 1040-970BC. I did not say we had written copies of the OT dated to 1000BC which described him. I said he was supposed to have lived around 1000BC.

But the actual date does not matter anyway! The point was that David was supposed to long pre-date Jesus in the 1st century AD.
 
Last edited:
Ian,

Why would Jesus' physical body have medical issues of the era, yet the figure be capable of healing any and every affliction placed in front of him without much effort at all, including raising others from death?

One would have to produce some exotic excuses. ...

It's curious you'd mention that, JaysonR, because in our own days we have a miracle worker who died of being mortal, yet his followers continue to believe in his special, special attributes.
I refer to Sathya Sai BabaWPof course.

I've known a number of people who believed him to be a saviour of mankind and their beliefs didn't diminish after his death.
"After nearly a month of hospitalisation, during which his condition progressively deteriorated, Sai Baba died on Sunday, 24 April at 7:40 IST, aged 84.[52]

Sai Baba had predicted that he would die at age 96 and would remain healthy until then.[53] After he died, some devotees suggested that he might have been referring to that many lunar years, which is followed by Telugu-speaking Hindus, rather than solar years,[54] and using the Indian way of accounting for age, which counts the year to come as part of the person's life.[55] Other devotees have spoken of his anticipated resurrection, reincarnation or awakening.[56][57]"



pakeha,

True, but notice how we have to cherry pick and stitch a large diversity of select parts from other stories to pull together a comparison, and in even doing so the function of that stitching doesn't net the same result as the Jesus stories?

Further, most of the comparisons that were being made in that blog were very gross comparisons and not very accurate in a specific sense.

For instance, Wanderings and Signs is incredibly vague (the description used) and does not describe the nature of the way those accounts are told very specifically; only that such basic concept as this existed.

The stories, while clearly not a chronicle, are distinct in their fashion and produced a new genre (which sadly did not end up being used to tell the stories of other figures; it would have been interesting if it had provoked more than one tale).

Of course you're right- you can't stitch together elements from those stories to make up the Jesus narratives, but I don't think that's the point of considering the accounts of Jesus' life as part of the literary world of that time.
I reckon the point is that those elements were present, could be identified by the audiences who listened to the people who spun those stories.

This is, I think, a legitimate way to see the Jesus narratives, as being very much a literary product of the Roman Empire post70.

The stories, while clearly not a chronicle, are distinct in their fashion and produced a new genre (which sadly did not end up being used to tell the stories of other figures; it would have been interesting if it had provoked more than one tale)

To my way of thinking, they did and we call this genre hagiography.
 
Again, we have writings attributed to Philo, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius, comtemporaries of the 1st century, and their writings do not contain the vast amount of total fiction and implausibility from beginning to end like the NT.

The stories of Jesus match the myth fables of the Jews, Greeks, and Romans.

Suetonius' "Life of the 12 Caesars" are excellent examples of how biographies were composed in antiquity.

Plutarch "Romulus" is an excellent example of Mythology.

The biographies of Jesus in the NT match Plutarch's "Romulus".

While it's true the Jesus narratives have elements of the myth fables of the Roman Empire of those times, I think it's clear they were spiced up with elements of popular fiction and thereby bringing forth a genre we call hagiography.

New genres of expression arise in all the arts, there's no mystery about it. Symphonies, video clips, flash mobs and fan fic are examples of new or relatively new genres. No one argues about their existence.

Is there a reason dispute the status of hagiography as a separate and distinct literary genre or that the Jesus narratives are possibly our earliest examples of it?

More coffee.
 
It's curious you'd mention that, JaysonR, because in our own days we have a miracle worker who died of being mortal, yet his followers continue to believe in his special, special attributes.
I refer to Sathya Sai BabaWPof course.

I've known a number of people who believed him to be a saviour of mankind and their beliefs didn't diminish after his death.
"After nearly a month of hospitalisation, during which his condition progressively deteriorated, Sai Baba died on Sunday, 24 April at 7:40 IST, aged 84.
There's an important difference between these swamis, gurus, miracle rabbis and their followers on one hand, and the Christian believers on the other. Unlike the swamis etc, Jesus is stated to have been carried bodily into heaven following his miraculous resurrection. It was not believed that he wouldn't or that he didn't die, but on the contrary that he most certainly did, and with the most singular effect; but that he then became alive again and rose into the sky. The earliest gospel omitted this detail, so someone later added it in. It's very important. It's Paul's evidence for the resurrection, without which his preaching is "in vain".

So if Jesus' physical remains were to be found in a grave on earth, that would contradict Christian beliefs in the most serious and important ways.
 
There's an important difference between these swamis, gurus, miracle rabbis and their followers on one hand, and the Christian believers on the other. Unlike the swamis etc, Jesus is stated to have been carried bodily into heaven following his miraculous resurrection. It was not believed that he wouldn't or that he didn't die, but on the contrary that he most certainly did, and with the most singular effect; but that he then became alive again and rose into the sky. The earliest gospel omitted this detail, so someone later added it in. It's very important. It's Paul's evidence for the resurrection, without which his preaching is "in vain".

So if Jesus' physical remains were to be found in a grave on earth, that would contradict Christian beliefs in the most serious and important ways.

Yes, Paul apparently was a Pharisee and they are said to have believed in a bodily resurrection, correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't their modern descendents those volunteers, ZAKAWP, who painstakingly recover every scrap of flesh after terrorist bombings in Israel?

While I can understand your point of view about how evidence of Jesus' human remains would be a death-blow Christian beliefs, I have the impression some form of adaption would happen to those whose beliefs are important to them, something along the lines of cults and/or individuals around the world who get brutally explicit proof their beliefs are utterly false.

I could be wrong on that, not for the first time.
 
There's an important difference between these swamis, gurus, miracle rabbis and their followers on one hand, and the Christian believers on the other. Unlike the swamis etc, Jesus is stated to have been carried bodily into heaven following his miraculous resurrection. It was not believed that he wouldn't or that he didn't die, but on the contrary that he most certainly did, and with the most singular effect; but that he then became alive again and rose into the sky. The earliest gospel omitted this detail, so someone later added it in. It's very important. It's Paul's evidence for the resurrection, without which his preaching is "in vain".

So if Jesus' physical remains were to be found in a grave on earth, that would contradict Christian beliefs in the most serious and important ways.



Why would it contradict Christian beliefs? The church teaches that Jesus met all the people in the gospels and did all the things described there. It teaches that Jesus was indeed a real person who did all the things claimed in the NT, inc. being crucified.

The church thinks there definitely was a dead fleshy body of Jesus. It says so in all the gospels.

If you ever found skeletal remains that could be positively identified as Jesus (how on earth would that ever be possible?), then the church would happily just say that was absolute final proof that Jesus lived.

If you want to say that it would be proof that he lived but that he was therefore a normal human person whose remains had been found, then the church would just say that all you had found was the earthly form adopted by Jesus, whilst his real form, i.e. his heavenly spirit form (he is the Son of God in heaven after all), was that which was seen to rise form the dead - e.g. in Paul’s letters, what Paul, the 500 and the rest of them claim to see, is a spiritual vision of Jesus. They do not ever describe (afaik) seeing a real dead human body floating around.

You could try to make some argument about the empty tomb and ask what happened to the human-like body; where did that go? But the NT is filled with all sorts of crazy miracle claims like that anyway.

Anyway, this whole idea of discovering Jesus skeletal remains, came form Jayson. All that I had said was that it would be a problem for current day Christianity if bible scholars, theologians and other Christian academics/writers began to say that Jesus did not exist and that he was probably only a fictional character after all. The church needs Jesus to be real in the sense of him doing all the things claimed in the NT (if not quite all the miracles).

Added to say - It’s also taking us quite off topic anyway. What effect it may or may not have on current day Christianity is really quite a separate question from what evidence exists for Jesus.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom