* * * International Skeptics Forum Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Doing the least to save your life... Started at 22nd December 2005 11:16 AM by Ducky Visit at https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55887 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 11:16 AM Thread Title : Doing the least to save your life...
Introduction by Luke T.:   We are witnessing an explosion of pushers of magic pills, waters, and elixirs reminiscent of the travelling snake oil salesmen of the late 19th century. Cure-all books which upon close examination we find have no cures in them, and are nothing but a bounty of vitriol for the modern science which has lengthened our lifespans. For those unfortunates who are sentenced with a life-threatening disease, it is a time of vulnerability and desperation. Here is one man's personal war against a host of predators waiting to exploit that fear. "There's no substitute for guts." - Bear Bryant Link to original topic (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49403)
My paper. (http://www.nocommercialpotential.org/for_fowlsound/SpinePaper.pdf) It's not written as well as it could have been. It's not as scientific, in that it does not go point by point through alternative medicines and treatments, as it could have been. It's not very polite at times. It's my story, and it's how I feel about those that would offer me alternative medicine in lieu of proper medical treatments for my cancer. Read at your leisure. I hope you enjoy it. There's some great pictures of my spine in there, both before the surgery and after. I'll quote a little here: I spent the next few months learning to walk again. I underwent 24 sessions of radiation therapy and several bone marrow biopsies, MRI scans, CT scans, bone surveys (which are essentially an x-ray of every part of you from several angles), and blood tests. You see, Solitary Plasmacytoma of Bone has a 50% chance of progressing to Multiple Myeloma in 10 years. Once that progression has happened, 37% of those diagnosed make it past 5 years. Currently, there is a second tumor forming in my right arm, but with the help of my hard working doctors, it was found early and will be treated. Because of all the hard work of my nuerosurgeon, oncologist, nurses, and me I was walking again by February of 2005 without a cane and had returned to work at a new job. A job that now pays for medical insurance. Without the scientific method none of my treatments would have been available to save me. 100 years ago I would have died as an infant, and 50 years ago I would have been paralyzed - if not dead. What I mean specifically is that without properly blinded studies, peer reviewed publication, the removal of emotion when gathering knowledge (removing confirmation bias and cherry picking of evidence), and the self correcting nature of scientific advancement there would have been absolutely no chance for me. You see, medical researchers come up with a hypothesis based on observed phenomenon. They then devise a test in which they cannot influence the end result, and then publish their findings for their peers to critique. If they did something wrong, it is caught, and more testing is done. In fact, more testing is done anyway. This is called Replication. That means if you have devised a study showing how much more effectively and quickly your pet rabbit learns to foil bungling hunters by watching cartoons, then I will also replicate that test to ensure the results are genuine. If they’re not, we’re going to have conflicting outcomes, and more and more study will happen until we get to the bottom of the true nature of how rabbits foil hunters. Let me boil it down: science sticks to the facts in a way that negates whether those testing have an opinion about their studies, and it ensures that if they do botch it it will be caught and corrected. This is the reality of how science works. It is also the foundation to every single one of the modern conveniences you and I take for granted every day. Cars, refrigerators, televisions, telephones, cell phones, computers, antibiotics, vaccines, satellites, airplanes, indoor plumbing, skyscrapers, shoe insoles, birth control, iPods, compact discs, DVDs... The list can go on for pages and pages. Science is leading us to more comfortable, productive, healthy lives and careers. It allows us to do things that would seem to be magic to someone from 200 years ago. Recently, an acquaintance responded to my chiding of the belief in ghosts and those that claim to talk to the dead “Ah the faith you all place in science. It doesn’t explain everything you know.” I simply responded to such an absurd statement by pointing out that science had fixed both my and her spines. She has rods and screws in her spine also, correcting a very severe case of scoliosis. She walks upright, has a straight spine and leads a healthy happy life because of science, and yet her attack on science was that it does not know everything. Here’s a news flash: science admits that. It continues to progress precisely because of that. You see, explaining “everything” isn’t the goal. The goal is to continue to learn all we can on observed phenomenon with empirical data gathered from blinded study published openly for peer review and based on testable hypothesis. Quite frankly to live your life in debt to science and then throw insults at science out of misunderstanding it is such an insult I don’t know where to begin. Which leads me to the point of this paper. After I wrote this, I found out the cancer has spread to my arm. I will be talking with an oncologist on 3 January, 2006. We'll discuss treatment options then. In the meantime, it seems I have an excuse to miss TAM. Sorry about that. Cheers. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Anti_Hypeman Date : 22nd December 2005 11:41 AM I read it and I have nothing negative to say about it so I will say nothing at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : brodski Date : 22nd December 2005 12:07 PM My paper. (http://www.nocommercialpotential.org/for_fowlsound/SpinePaper.pdf) It's not written as well as it could have been. It's not as scientific, in that it does not go point by point through alternative medicines and treatments, as it could have been. It's not very polite at times. It's my story, and it's how I feel about those that would offer me alternative medicine in lieu of proper medical treatments for my cancer. Read at your leisure. I hope you enjoy it. There's some great pictures of my spine in there, both before the surgery and after. I'll quote a little here: After I wrote this, I found out the cancer has spread to my arm. I will be talking with an oncologist on 3 January, 2006. We'll discuss treatment options then. In the meantime, it seems I have an excuse to miss TAM. Sorry about that. Cheers. Thanks for that Fowlsound, it said all of the things I wanted to say to the rule 8's who tried (successfully unfortunately) to push SCAM onto my sister when she had cancer. Unfortunately at that time I was too young (and emotional) to really articulate what I wanted to say, so i spent a lot of time very frustrated, except on the one occasion when I did actually resort to physical violence. My youth and emotional stat providing a pretty good shield from serious repercussions. I'm, none too proud of what I did, but I have to admit, it felt good. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 22nd December 2005 12:21 PM Yowza fowldood, I had a suspicion those were implants you either had or currently have. I guess things could be worse. Damn.. Not sure what to say. I read your story and of course you are preaching to the choir here so to speak but right on. I will pray to FSM that you continue to win all your battles. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : rikzilla Date : 22nd December 2005 12:32 PM Good luck to you FS. You have a quiet steady courage about you and I am inspired by it. You'll be missed at TAM. Get better soon! -z -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Rolfe Date : 22nd December 2005 01:08 PM After I wrote this, I found out the cancer has spread to my arm. I will be talking with an oncologist on 3 January, 2006. We'll discuss treatment options then. In the meantime, it seems I have an excuse to miss TAM. Sorry about that.Sorry too, Fowlsound. I'm rooting for you. Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : kmortis Date : 22nd December 2005 01:33 PM Dude...um...dude. No, really, Dude. ETA: The MRIs of the spine "before" I sat :eye-poppi for a good minute. So, again, Dude! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : Terry Date : 22nd December 2005 01:36 PM My thoughts are with you, Fowlsound. No excuses for TAM5, okay? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Genesius Date : 22nd December 2005 02:51 PM Jumpin' Jeebus!! The pics of your spine made me reach for a handfull of Advil just for the sympathy pain. I publicly bow before you in recognition of your courage. I hope I'd show the same were I in your shoes. Please pardon me if I also fervently hope I never have the chance to find out. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : John Jackson Date : 22nd December 2005 03:05 PM Well said, fowlshound. I wouldn’t worry about it not being a scientific document, or that there’s some bad language in it – it’s from the heart, and that’s what really gets the point across. Will it be staying up on that URL? I’d like to link to it if I may. I’m rooting for you too. Well I will be unless you slag Newcastle Utd off again. :p -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 03:10 PM Well said, fowlshound. I wouldn’t worry about it not being a scientific document, or that there’s some bad language in it – it’s from the heart, and that’s what really gets the point across. Will it be staying up on that URL? I’d like to link to it if I may. I’m rooting for you too. Well I will be unless you slag Newcastle Utd off again. :p Terry is hosting that for me. It's up to him. If you'd like, pm me an email address and I'll send you a PDF of it. (or just save it from that URL.) I give premission to everyone who wants to reproduce or copy that paper as they see fit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : John Jackson Date : 22nd December 2005 03:16 PM Thanks fowlshound, I'll save a copy and put it on my server then I'll take the bandwidth hit. I'll use it "as is". Cheers, John -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 03:29 PM Thanks fowlshound, I'll save a copy and put it on my server then I'll take the bandwidth hit. I'll use it "as is". Cheers, John Sweet. Post the link to your site. I'd be interested to see it. ETA: Nevermind. My moronic self remembered to check your profile. Next I will learn to tie my shoes... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : John Jackson Date : 22nd December 2005 03:38 PM http://www.skeptics.org.uk/documents/SpinePaper.pdf I've put it up there. Anyone can link to it or copy it from there - I have the bandwith, no problem. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 03:40 PM http://www.skeptics.org.uk/documents/SpinePaper.pdf I've put it up there. Anyone can link to it or copy it from there - I have the bandwith, no problem. Cool. gonna link it on the health page? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : John Jackson Date : 22nd December 2005 03:44 PM Yes, I'm definitely going to make something of it. It will be featured on the site. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 03:46 PM Yes, I'm definitely going to make something of it. It will be featured on the site. I feel all tingly now. ;) Glad you liked it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : AnotherSillyAlias Date : 22nd December 2005 03:47 PM Sounds like you've had a real "interesting" life there fowl, I hope it gets a lot less interesting in 06. Keep up the writing, maybe somebody else out there with similar problems to you will read it and get something positive from it. My crystal balls tell me you've got lots of TAMS in front of you. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : Chris Haynes Date : 22nd December 2005 03:57 PM Isn't there a curse that goes "May you have an interesting life"? Great paper, fowlsound... and I shall think good thoughts for you in the new years. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : AnotherSillyAlias Date : 22nd December 2005 04:31 PM Isn't there a curse that goes "May you have an interesting life"? I think it's Chinese and I believe the quote is somethig like: May you live in interesting times. No doubt some clever bugger will come along with the correct info soon. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : LostAngeles Date : 22nd December 2005 06:12 PM I think it's Chinese and I believe the quote is somethig like: May you live in interesting times. No doubt some clever bugger will come along with the correct info soon. :) That's it exactly. "Interesting times," are never the times of pleasantry, peace, and calm. They're nearly always famine-filled, war-filled, tyranny-filled, jelly-filled, plaque-filled, and generally suffering-filled. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : logical muse Date : 22nd December 2005 06:20 PM Hey fowl... Beautifully and powerfully written. I'm going to print this out and give it to a friend of mine who's father is very ill and has been sucked in by some fraudulent peddlers of alternative treatment. Thank you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 06:35 PM This question leaked into another thread from this one, so I brought it back here. The guy is a walking miracle thanks to science and yet people have felt the need to throw garbage in his face like, "Your body is too acidic," or, "You did something to deserve this." They offer him sugar pills and magic water and poo-poo the stuff that actually saved his life and call it, "poison." Wouldn't you be angry? Well I guess I would be if I had experienced all that. fowlsound, I read your paper with interest. What do you think would have happened if you had been treated using alternative medicine at any point? How does your anger serve you? Does it protect you from using bogus treatments? How in control of your life do you feel? I wish you a full recovery. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : Chris Haynes Date : 22nd December 2005 06:40 PM ... What do you think would have happened if you had been treated using alternative medicine at any point? How does your anger serve you? .... I believe he said he would be dead. Something you would have noticed if you had read it. See (quoting from the first message in this thread): 100 years ago I would have died as an infant, and 50 years ago I would have been paralyzed - if not dead. What I mean specifically is that without properly blinded studies, peer reviewed publication, the removal of emotion when gathering knowledge (removing confirmation bias and cherry picking of evidence), and the self correcting nature of scientific advancement there would have been absolutely no chance for me. Edited to add: His anger may have to do with those who do not stop to understand what they are saying. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 06:49 PM I believe he said he would be dead. Something you would have noticed if you had read it. I am not sure that using alternative medicine is the same as not using doctors. Which of magic water, changing your diet or Vitamin C kills you? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 06:50 PM This question leaked into another thread from this one, so I brought it back here. Well I guess I would be if I had experienced all that. fowlsound, I read your paper with interest. What do you think would have happened if you had been treated using alternative medicine at any point? How does your anger serve you? Does it protect you from using bogus treatments? How in control of your life do you feel? I wish you a full recovery. What would have happened? I would be dead. plain and simple. No alternative treatment would do anything to cure what I have. How does your anger serve you? How in control of your life do you feel? Piss off. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Kiless Date : 22nd December 2005 06:50 PM Thanks for that, Fowlsound... I was wondering how I could link it over at the skepchick.org site but Mr Jackson (thanks!) said he'd put it up and that's brilliant. I have a few people in mind who should definitely read it. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : Mercutio Date : 22nd December 2005 06:51 PM Damn, FS.... Thanks for that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 06:53 PM I am not sure that using alternative medicine is the same as not using doctors. Which of magic water, changing your diet or Vitamin C kills you? In leiu of treatment? They all kill you because teh cancer kills you. Actually read the paper, don't just look at the pictures. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 07:41 PM In leiu of treatment? They all kill you because teh cancer kills you. Actually read the paper, don't just look at the pictures. What about the placebo effect. You benefit from that surely? Otherwise double-blind trials would be a waste of time, n'est-ce pas? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 07:43 PM What about the placebo effect. You benefit from that surely? Otherwise double-blind trials would be a waste of time, n'est-ce pas? Are you for real? Do you want to gamble your life on the placebo effect? It is not 100%. It's more like 20% (or somewhere around there. med folks, help me out with that #?) There is no PLACEBO that cures CANCER. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 07:49 PM Are you for real? Do you want to gamble your life on the placebo effect? Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several. It is not 100%. No, it's not. What is? It's more like 20% (or somewhere around there. med folks, help me out with that #?) There is no PLACEBO that cures CANCER. What about the people who get better without using doctors? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 07:54 PM Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several. No, it's not. What is? What about the people who get better without using doctors? love, I am trying to decide whether you are honest in this line of questioning or if you are trolling. Ok let's put it this way: You have multiple myeloma. Do you attempt to shrink your many tumors using, say, Revlimid, which is tested and shown to have a high effective rate in shrinking tumors (well over 85%) or would you take the sugar pill (20%?) If you choose placebo you are worthy of a Darwin Award. Do you have a point here, or are you just trolling? ETA: show me one placebo that puts back the vertabrae destroyed by the tumor I had in my spine. Are you honestly suggesting that homeopathy could have cured that condition? Did you even read the paper, or are you talking out of your rear? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : Terry Date : 22nd December 2005 07:58 PM Will it be staying up on that URL? I’d like to link to it if I may. I will be hosting it there indefinitely. You may consider the URL static. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 07:59 PM I will be hosting it there indefinitely. You may consider the URL static. Thank you Terry. Much obliged :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 22nd December 2005 07:59 PM What about the people who get better without using doctors? What people with cancer get better without using doctors? I imagine it would be those who don't have cancer but imagine they do so if they imagine they took something for their imaginary cancer they could imagine they got better and they would be better in their imagination if you can imagine that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : money Date : 22nd December 2005 08:01 PM Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several. Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine... So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would: a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C b.) pray like the dickens c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here) If so, well.... good luck with that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : cheddar Date : 22nd December 2005 08:22 PM Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several. In the awful event that you're ever diagnosed with cancer, make sure to keep a detailed log and let us know how sampling from the placebo dessert tray works out for you. It's funny that for thousands of years humanity had nothing but placebos with which to treat their diseases. They had placebos coming out the wazoo. A cornucopia of placebos of many different shapes, sizes, and styles. Yet they lived dramatically shorter lives overall and died much more rapidly when they were diagnosed with diseases. I wonder why that is? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : TruthSeeker Date : 22nd December 2005 08:36 PM thanks FS. That is an excellent piece. It will come in handy. Love's comments are exactly why your paper is needed. Thank you again. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 08:47 PM love, I am trying to decide whether you are honest in this line of questioning or if you are trolling. Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors. Ok let's put it this way: You have multiple myeloma. Do you attempt to shrink your many tumors using, say, Revlimid, which is tested and shown to have a high effective rate in shrinking tumors (well over 85%) or would you take the sugar pill (20%?) Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to. I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible. If you choose placebo you are worthy of a Darwin Award. I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it. ;) Do you have a point here, or are you just trolling? No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours. ETA: Please help me here. What does this stand for? show me one placebo that puts back the vertabrae destroyed by the tumor I had in my spine. The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face. Are you honestly suggesting that homeopathy could have cured that condition? The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine. In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health. Did you even read the paper, or are you talking out of your rear? Yes. It seemed very passionately argued. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 08:51 PM Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors. Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to. I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible. I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it. ;) No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours. Please help me here. What does this stand for? The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face. The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine. In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health. Yes. It seemed very passionately argued. In that case let's skip straight to the point. Name one properly blinded study showing homeopathy does anything at all above placebo. Or would you like me to skip straight to the lancet article? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 08:52 PM What people with cancer get better without using doctors? I imagine it would be those who don't have cancer but imagine they do so if they imagine they took something for their imaginary cancer they could imagine they got better and they would be better in their imagination if you can imagine that. Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 08:55 PM Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works. That's great. If you get cancer, let me know how that works out for you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 08:58 PM In that case let's skip straight to the point. Name one properly blinded study showing homeopathy does anything at all above placebo. Or would you like me to skip straight to the lancet article? Why does it matter if homeopathy is better than a placebo? Homeopathy is a very good placebo. Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine... So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would: a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C b.) pray like the dickens c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here) If so, well.... good luck with that. Yes, clearly two placebos are better than one. I don't know why more people don't do this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : Kiless Date : 22nd December 2005 08:58 PM 'love', Before you go any further, I'm going to politely suggest that all of your suggestions may require you to consider looking at the million dollar challenge page, so you can take a more proactive step about your beliefs and maybe make a difference in the way your homeopathy and other suggestions are viewed by putting it up to the test. Do that. I'm willing to cheer you on for taking that step. Anything else that you may seem to think is so 'helpful' in terms of addressing Fowlsound's condition is going to cause you more grief than you probably deserve. Although I'm certain there's some people who would probably think otherwise about how much grief you deserve and I can well envision their reasoning for doing so. Move away from this one. Seriously. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : Kiless Date : 22nd December 2005 09:00 PM Oh - you seem to have trouble understanding the word 'placebo': pla·ce·bo 1 a) A substance containing no medication and prescribed or given to reinforce a patient's expectation to get well. b) An inactive substance or preparation used as a control in an experiment or test to determine the effectiveness of a medicinal drug. 2. Something of no intrinsic remedial value that is used to appease or reassure another. From dictionary.com. I particularly noticed 'definition 2'... (edited to clarify what definition I was refering to) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : love Date : 22nd December 2005 09:00 PM That's great. If you get cancer, let me know how that works out for you. I don't see the value of getting cancer simply to prove a point. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : Terry Date : 22nd December 2005 09:02 PM Yes, clearly two placebos are better than one. What evidence do you have for this assertion? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : TruthSeeker Date : 22nd December 2005 09:02 PM Yes, that's basically how it works. You imagine yourself with the cancer and then imagine yourself getting better from it. Then you have to take all the steps that bring about the imagined result. If you believe it, it works. All the steps: like finding an expert team of oncologists, nurses, home care workers, rehab specialists, psychologists ets. Having surgery/radiation/chemo as per the best standards of evidence-based medicine. Obtaining the best symptom control available. Managing stress and trying to maintain some sense of sanity in the midst of all the chaos. Finally, waiting to hear the fabulous "all clear" from your health care workers Yup...imagine it and then do it...sound advice, but somehow I think I may have misunderstood you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd December 2005 09:03 PM I don't see the value of getting cancer simply to prove a point. You also apparently don't see the value in reading and fully comprehending the written word. I'm going to echo Kiless' warning before I drop the gloves on this: Move away from this one. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : Mercutio Date : 22nd December 2005 09:04 PM Love...let me echo Kiless. Walk away from this one. You are not merely wrong, but in this context you are offensively so. Start another thread on placebos if you like, I would be happy to join in there. The whole point of a double blind study is to show the effectiveness of a treatment over and above placebo. FowlSound's treatments are, quite simple, a hell of a lot more effective than a thousand placebos. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : Kiless Date : 22nd December 2005 09:07 PM How about you start a generic thread about homeopathy somewhere else, 'love'. That may be better. Then you can perhaps propose a general statement, only about a paragraph, so people can talk generally about the topic. And of course, check out here: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html You might like to start reading some threads in the challenge forum about how people have thought about proposing homeopathy for the challenge. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : Chris Haynes Date : 22nd December 2005 09:14 PM You also apparently don't see the value in reading and fully comprehending the written word. I'm going to echo Kiless' warning before I drop the gloves on this: Move away from this one. Nor did she closely examine the x-rays of the spine, somehow I am not quite sure how a placebo would work on that kind of physical damage. I would like to formally apologize for sending "love" over to this thread. I sincerely thought she/he would get a clue. But I was so terribly wrong. I am so sorry, and it seems she/he has absolutely no idea how hurtful her/his cluelessness is ... and now I am moving away from this one. sorry -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : Kiless Date : 22nd December 2005 11:13 PM I have deemed posts 52 onwards to have 'abandoned all hope'. The thread may continue there as it has derailed from the original topic and resorted to flaming. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : clarsct Date : 22nd December 2005 11:13 PM If my posts are going to be removed, at least PM me and let me know. Thanks. ETA: Oh,sorry Kiless....apparently I walked in at the middle of the process....my apologies. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : LostAngeles Date : 22nd December 2005 11:39 PM If my posts are going to be removed, at least PM me and let me know. Thanks. ETA: Oh,sorry Kiless....apparently I walked in at the middle of the process....my apologies. :lfault -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : Kiless Date : 23rd December 2005 12:28 AM Due to technical difficulties, the moved threads can be found here (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49444), although pasted in my post. I apologise to all concerned for the odd formatting but every post has been maintained. Back on topic. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : Kiless Date : 23rd December 2005 12:58 AM :lfault NO! MINE! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : Rolfe Date : 23rd December 2005 03:11 AM I'm much more concerned about this new lesion in Fowlsound's arm. Where abouts in the arm, Fowlsound? How extensive? Do you know for sure it's myeloma again? Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : NeilC Date : 23rd December 2005 03:16 AM If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : clarsct Date : 23rd December 2005 03:27 AM Other than a Waste Of Money, Brains And Time? No, there are better things to do with one's time and imagination. Like, say, sorting your pennies by date. Or, hey, I have a good one! Dream up a fanastic date with your S/O...then spend the money making it come true! Nyah...it'd never work.:rolleyes: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : Rolfe Date : 23rd December 2005 05:24 AM If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises. I can. They can become an obsession, and if the patient buys into the creed that the only reason this might not work is that you didn't try hard enough, a very destructive obsession. Homoeopathic remedies are harmless too. Would you suggest he take these, for that reason? Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : NeilC Date : 23rd December 2005 05:44 AM If I had cancer? Possibly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : Rolfe Date : 23rd December 2005 05:48 AM Why? Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Author : NeilC Date : 23rd December 2005 05:54 AM I didn't say I would I said I might. Hard to say what I might do if I had a potentially terminal illness. I can’t confidently state that I wouldn’t. The imaginative exercises might work in some sense – nobody can really say that developing a positive attitude etc cannot have any effect on one’s immune system or merely one’s ability to cope or something else not thought of just yet. Re: Homeopathy – this is probably the least likely thing I’d dtry but might be worth trying re: the placebo effect. It does appear to be quite a good placebo. Given that terminal illness is your last shot I cannot rule out the possibility that I'd take the view that anything is worth trying as long as it doesn’t do any harm. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Author : MRC_Hans Date : 23rd December 2005 05:57 AM What would have happened? I would be dead. plain and simple. No alternative treatment would do anything to cure what I have. How does your anger serve you? How in control of your life do you feel? Piss off.Admirable restraint! I almost started a post chewing him out, then thought, leave that to fowlsound. I'm very impressed at your calm reaction. ...I guess it's a good think you two are not in the same room, tho'. Hans -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Author : Rolfe Date : 23rd December 2005 06:06 AM Splossy, if I told you that nailing a dead chicken you your door was a great cancer therapy, and why not, it can't do any harm, would you try it? Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness? Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Author : NeilC Date : 23rd December 2005 06:06 AM "Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness?" Yes. Of course. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Author : MRC_Hans Date : 23rd December 2005 06:13 AM What about the placebo effect. You benefit from that surely? Otherwise double-blind trials would be a waste of time, n'est-ce pas?No. In double-blind studies, the term "placebo effect" covers anything that is not due to the drug under test. That means natural remission, lifestyle changes, reporting bias, self-delusion, etc. etc. In other words, a long range of factors that may make patients better or worse, but are not due to the specific effect of the drug, but due to the overall situation of the patients. The "real" placebo effect, that is, patients actually, objectively, improving due to feeling reassured by treatment has some merit for various complaints with a psychological factor. There is not, to my knowledge, any reliable data supporting the notion that this kind of placebo effect has any influence on physical pathology, however. "Positive thinking" therapy was tried on a large scale for cancer treatment during the eighties (together with conventional treatment), but while it did improve the percieved quality of life for many patients, there was no objective improvement in the outcome for these patients, compared to patients that were only given conventional treatment. Hans -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Author : Mercutio Date : 23rd December 2005 06:18 AM If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises. I can only see the harm if A) you did this instead of real medicine. Since you say "as well", this is not the case. The problem is, there are faith healers and frauds out there who will encourage you to give up the Western medicine and follow theirs. My cynical side thinks that if you spontaneously recover, they take credit, and if you die, it makes it tough for you to complain. B) you do not have the time or money for such things. Medical care can take a long time and huge amounts of money. When my office-mate died of ovarian cancer, she did try alternative things as well as chemo and radiation and surgery. There was no end to the "advice" people gave her (drink everything from a blue glass, that will work). There could not have been enough time for all. And look for "John of God" threads--people will interrupt treatment to go see a faith healer. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Author : NeilC Date : 23rd December 2005 06:20 AM You don't actually know that to be the case. This from Skepdic: "There are too many studies which have found objective improvements in health from placebos to support the notion that the placebo effect is entirely psychological. Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope" There are other parts of the article that probably contradict it. But it's clear there might well be a physical side to it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Author : NeilC Date : 23rd December 2005 06:23 AM I can only see the harm if A) you did this instead of real medicine. Since you say "as well", this is not the case. The problem is, there are faith healers and frauds out there who will encourage you to give up the Western medicine and follow theirs. My cynical side thinks that if you spontaneously recover, they take credit, and if you die, it makes it tough for you to complain. B) you do not have the time or money for such things. Medical care can take a long time and huge amounts of money. When my office-mate died of ovarian cancer, she did try alternative things as well as chemo and radiation and surgery. There was no end to the "advice" people gave her (drink everything from a blue glass, that will work). There could not have been enough time for all. And look for "John of God" threads--people will interrupt treatment to go see a faith healer. I agree entirely. All I was saying was that personally, knowing myself like I do, that I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Author : richardm Date : 23rd December 2005 06:51 AM I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right. I suppose this is lead to one of the more offensive aspects of many complementary therapies. People who know that the treatment they're peddling is worthless, but they sell it anyway because they know that desperate people will try anything on the offchance :mad: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Author : Ripley Twenty-Nine Date : 23rd December 2005 08:10 AM I agree entirely. All I was saying was that personally, knowing myself like I do, that I'd possibly give a fe non-harmful things a try, just in case. I'd rather be alive than merely right. You have to also look at the harm that placebo and 'alternative therapies' can cause. My father believes in the evils of 'big pharma', has a subscription to Kevin Trudeau's website (much to my chagrin), etc. He was diagnosed about a year ago with prostate cancer. Instead of going straight for medical treatment, he decided to try herbal remedies in hopes that the prostate would shrink, and possibly be cured of cancer without resorting to mainstream science. He thought it was working for him, so wasn't as concerned to go for a follow up appointment. Needless to say, by the time he did go for a follow up, the prostate was almost unmanagable. He finally had the surgery a few days ago, which was touch and go due to size and the loss of blood. The placebo effect can have positive effects, but foregoing medical treatment while hoping that a placebo will have a positive effect is a huge gamble. Certainly not one that I'm willing to take. And that's why those who sell placebos as a valid alternative to mainstream medicine are no better than common criminals; While they're lining their pockets, people who trust in the placebo effect die. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Author : brodski Date : 23rd December 2005 08:36 AM I suppose this is lead to one of the more offensive aspects of many complementary therapies. People who know that the treatment they're peddling is worthless, but they sell it anyway because they know that desperate people will try anything on the offchance :mad: Its more than that, Ive seen SCAMers deliberately targetign the terminally ill, they're content selling false hope to people who are incredibly emotionally vulnerable, and more often than not in extremely difficult financial circumstances (being seriously ill costs you serious amounts of money, even if you do have state funded medicine). The guilt trips these people will pull on patients and their families are incredible, when a family member is facing death, the urge to do anything, and spend any amount in the vain hope that it may help them is almost overwhelming. Some people look at this situation and see £ signs. These people deserve their own circle of hell, just above the sociopaths that do the same, but try and convince the patient to give up effective treatment in favour of their snake oil, and will even try and convince the patient that the Drs who are working hard to save their life, are actually making them ill! I would rather the SCAMers where out mugging people on the street than targeting the oncology wards, they are much less likely to kill someone that way, and each victim will probably loose less, both emotionally and materially. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Author : Rolfe Date : 23rd December 2005 08:42 AM No. In double-blind studies, the term "placebo effect" covers anything that is not due to the drug under test. That means natural remission, lifestyle changes, reporting bias, self-delusion, etc. etc. In other words, a long range of factors that may make patients better or worse, but are not due to the specific effect of the drug, but due to the overall situation of the patients. The "real" placebo effect, that is, patients actually, objectively, improving due to feeling reassured by treatment has some merit for various complaints with a psychological factor. There is not, to my knowledge, any reliable data supporting the notion that this kind of placebo effect has any influence on physical pathology, however. "Positive thinking" therapy was tried on a large scale for cancer treatment during the eighties (together with conventional treatment), but while it did improve the percieved quality of life for many patients, there was no objective improvement in the outcome for these patients, compared to patients that were only given conventional treatment. HansJust in case anyone missed this. Placebo is one of two things. An inactive pill given to "placate" the patient, to make then think the doc is doing something for them, or a similarly inactive pill given to the control group in a drug trial. There can be so much going on with coincidental improvement, wishful thinking and so on, that such controls are necessary to separate out the effect of the real pharmaceutical from what would have happened anyway. The "placebo" doesn't actually do anything, apart from possibly making the patient les anxious. Nailing a dead chicken to your door is a well-known cancer cure. You owe it to yourself to try it! Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Author : Garrette Date : 23rd December 2005 09:10 AM Very sorry I haven't chimed in before, fowlsound, and even more sorry for the troubles you have faced and continue to face. Great paper. I'm keeping it to hand give to some folks at appropriate times. Well done. Thanks. Get better. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Author : BillHoyt Date : 23rd December 2005 10:23 AM Although I may be coming from a very different viewpoint to you, and certainly had very different experiences, I am interested in what you think and feel. Maybe my interest is that I used to be a very angry person myself. And maybe also because I still feel some anger towards doctors. Fortunately, love, we have better ways than "viewpoints" and "anger" and to determine the truth of these matters. There is no "viewpoint" involved with regard to scientific truth. Well, I would use all my healing tools, and attempt to determine the underlying cause of the disease. I would likely only use Revlimid as a last resort. I would bascially just do, whatever I felt to. "Healing tools" is a nonsense phrase used by those who wish to include unproven or even disproven ideas as substitutes for medicine. Doing what you feel like doing is a recipe for disaster. I do use homeopathy. Then, love, you're a fool. ime I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible. If you are "one of those 20%," love, then you didn't "treat" yourself. You deluded yourself. The "treatment" did nothing. This is the definition of "placebo." Nothing happened as a result of the placebo. It either happened anyway, or the patient deluded herself. I think that's an exaggeration, and you know it. ;) Uh, no, you clearly don't understand what a placebo is. No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours.[/.quote] Its a great thing that science isn't based on people's experience, because, you see, nobody else can corroborate or refute your self-reports. We can simply say the placebo didn't help you one wit. We can further more say, with confidence, that the various snake oils you applied were also a total waste of both your time and effort. Period, love. [quote]The Body Mirror System of Healing, for example. It helped cure a family member of scoliosis. There are many others. I could offer you a remote healing. As I am so far away, I am fairly sure you won't punch me in the face. Remote healing? And you haven't applied for the million dollars? What kind of foolishness is this? The condition, yes. But I am not sure you are open to being cured that way. You seem to have more faith in the miracles of modern medicine. Fallacy of equivocation here, love. In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health. Please cite your evidence. I have, btw, similar questions on other threads that you seem to have ignored. Please respond to this one. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 10:23 AM I'm much more concerned about this new lesion in Fowlsound's arm. Where abouts in the arm, Fowlsound? How extensive? Do you know for sure it's myeloma again? Rolfe. upper humorus. it's very small, and consistent with myeloma tumor. more MRI and CT scans have been taken I'll learn more on the 3 january meeting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 80] Author : rikzilla Date : 23rd December 2005 10:46 AM Yes, clearly employing multiple placebo effects is the future of medicine... So if you were diagnosed with cancer, you would: a.) take a bunch of Vitamin C b.) pray like the dickens c.) wear a healing crystal around your neck d.) wear a copper bracelet while lying on a mattress filled with tiny magnets e.) and gulp handfulls of sugarpills f.) (insert other hokey bunch of jackalope crap here) If so, well.... good luck with that. Thanks folks! I now have the objective answer to that age old question: For love or money? Looks like Money is the only rational choice available! ;) Fight hard FowlSound...you are a fine example of the courage necessary to adhere to rationality in the face of mortality. Carl Sagan is one of my heros; but not just because of the way he lived; the way he faced death was even more impressive. You OTOH are expected at TAM5. No excuses man. -z -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 81] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 23rd December 2005 11:02 AM I can. They can become an obsession, and if the patient buys into the creed that the only reason this might not work is that you didn't try hard enough, a very destructive obsession. Homoeopathic remedies are harmless too. Would you suggest he take these, for that reason? Rolfe. Homeopathic remedies are supposed to be harmless and should be if they are prepared properly however people have died for taking homeopathic preparations due to bacterial contamination contamination with powerful drugs. The point I would say is that if a product is entirely useless than any risk from it is too much. There are risks to all these natural things you might think are safe. More and more risks are discovered all the time as they get used more and more. On top of that there is a plethora of imaginary treatments to use. How would one go about logically choosing those which might help? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 82] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 11:12 AM Admirable restraint! I almost started a post chewing him out, then thought, leave that to fowlsound. I'm very impressed at your calm reaction. ...I guess it's a good think you two are not in the same room, tho'. Hans Well, it started out that way. If you look at the split I was less than charitable later on in the thread. It baffles me how someone can read a paper explicitly explaining how offensive something is to someone then go do just that to that person. Also, I would point out that love had said I was using my cancer and subconsciously wanted to have cancer. This is ridiculous. love obviously has never seen firsthand anyone recovering from spinal surgeries, or cancer. Why anyone would presume someone would "want" that much pain and suffering is beyond me, and quite offensive. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 83] Author : BillHoyt Date : 23rd December 2005 11:22 AM Also, I would point out that love had said I was using my cancer and subconsciously wanted to have cancer. This is ridiculous. love obviously has never seen firsthand anyone recovering from spinal surgeries, or cancer. Why anyone would presume someone would "want" that much pain and suffering is beyond me, and quite offensive. Unfortunately, fowlsound, this is the zeitgeist of the woo. Blame the victim. A friend of mine, whose husband had cheated on her throughout their marriage was told by a woo friend of hers that she needed to examine the reasons she needed to attract such a husband to her. Whoa. How very caring and wholesome a movement, eh? A clear improvement over the cold, heartless scientific and medical community, eh? They always say it sincerely and with smiles on their faces, "well, if only you didn't need to have cancer, you wouldn't have it." It is so easy, and you are so stupid to be having this horrid disease. Snap out of it! Pay the receptionist $350 on your way out, please. Next? If this crap keeps up we'll be back to Monty Python, "bring out yer dead" scenes and all the other trappings of the dark ages we thought were long past. Ah, yes, those were the days of the nights. Last one out of the enlightenment, please remember to turn off the lights. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 84] Author : Rockstar Date : 23rd December 2005 11:25 AM I am not sure that using alternative medicine is the same as not using doctors. Which of magic water, changing your diet or Vitamin C kills you? Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works? A: Medicine -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 85] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 11:32 AM Unfortunately, fowlsound, this is the zeitgeist of the woo. Blame the victim. A friend of mine, whose husband had cheated on her throughout their marriage was told by a woo friend of hers that she needed to examine the reasons she needed to attract such a husband to her. Whoa. How very caring and wholesome a movement, eh? A clear improvement over the cold, heartless scientific and medical community, eh? They always say it sincerely and with smiles on their faces, "well, if only you didn't need to have cancer, you wouldn't have it." It is so easy, and you are so stupid to be having this horrid disease. Snap out of it! Pay the receptionist $350 on your way out, please. Next? If this crap keeps up we'll be back to Monty Python, "bring out yer dead" scenes and all the other trappings of the dark ages we thought were long past. Ah, yes, those were the days of the nights. Last one out of the enlightenment, please remember to turn off the lights. Apparently making broad assumtions that are untrue about people and passing them off as fact is par for the course also. love cited that I was using abusive tactics to control their argument, and that my father probably did the same. My father was rather quiet and softspoken, and hardly abusinve in any stretch of the term. (granted, he was an attorney...) love reminded me of a bad psychic reading. throw enough out there and expect the other person to fill in the blanks, then reccommend som crap treatment afterward. Thing is, nothing they said was true about me, and honestly I do not see how they couldn't understand they were offensive. If you offend someone, the reason they are abusive back is merely because you offended them to that point. End of story. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 86] Author : Roadtoad Date : 23rd December 2005 11:41 AM Splossy, love, let me point something out. If I had cancer, the first thing I'd tell any doctor is use whatever means possible to kill the disease, as long as it had been proven effective. Considering the amount of money and time required with proven treatments, why would I waste time on ANYTHING other than that which is effective? If you don't get the Cancer, the Cancer gets you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 87] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 11:44 AM If you don't get the Cancer, the Cancer gets you. Damn skippy. Cheers mate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 88] Author : Diamond Date : 23rd December 2005 11:49 AM The rate for spontaneous remission from cancer is about 4% Those are really poor odds. I think FS has every right to go for the treatment with the best percentages without his belief system having anything to do with it. The difference between 85% and 4% is rather large. FS is choosing life and not a sugar pill. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 89] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 23rd December 2005 11:53 AM You don't actually know that to be the case. This from Skepdic: "There are too many studies which have found objective improvements in health from placebos to support the notion that the placebo effect is entirely psychological. Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope" There are other parts of the article that probably contradict it. But it's clear there might well be a physical side to it. I would be interested in seeing the study on the warts and what the inert substance was and what controls were used. However warts often spontaneously resolve so it is difficult to evaluate treatments. Asthma is in my opinion partially a psychological disease so would respond to psychological manipulation. The perception of pain can be altered by your mind no big news there. Perhaps there is a psychological factor in colitis so that would explain why it seems to respond to placebo. Symptoms can respond to placebo (the disease usually doesn't unless it is of a psychological nature to start with) Notice there were no malignant tumors mentioned in the placebo descriptions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 90] Author : Chris Haynes Date : 23rd December 2005 02:09 PM If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises. What is important in this case is that you probably would not delay the conventional treatment. There is no harm in the imagination exercises... what does cause harm is trying NOTHING but "alternatives" and allowing the cancer to grow to a more unmanagiable state. Just like was illustrated by the case of prostrate cancer posted by Ripley Twenty-Nine in post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1341538&postcount=74 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 91] Author : AnotherSillyAlias Date : 23rd December 2005 02:28 PM I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 92] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 02:30 PM I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery. State of mind is very important. I agree with you. It's when you take the sCAM instead of traditional medicine that is offensive. Of course I take it further and say it's offensive to offer me soemthing that doesn't work, but it is not offensive to me for people to tell me to keep a positive attitude and cheer me up. There's a distinct line there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 93] Author : Perpetual Notion Date : 23rd December 2005 02:32 PM D*mmit fowlsound, I go away for a few weeks and this is what I come back to? I'm sorry you are dealing with this again but you are on the right path and you have fought this before and come out ok. I hope it is not as rough this time around. I will be thinking of you and will want to know how you're doing. If anyone has the ability to kick this things a**, it's you. Sometimes it's a good, good thing to be angry. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 94] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 23rd December 2005 03:32 PM If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery. State of mind helps but not in direct ways. It helps you to endure the illness, it helps you to keep taking your prescribed therapy, it keeps you in the proper frame of mind to communicate accurately with the doctor, it keeps you from feeling sorry for yourself and becoming self destructive -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 95] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 03:39 PM State of mind helps but not in direct ways. It helps you to endure the illness, it helps you to keep taking your prescribed therapy, it keeps you in the proper frame of mind to communicate accurately with the doctor, it keeps you from feeling sorry for yourself and becoming self destructive Agreed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 96] Author : Rockin' Rick Date : 23rd December 2005 04:04 PM Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works? A: Medicine Brilliant. The thing that bothers me the most about alternative medicine is when it is simply shoved off. Government regulation mainly, and some others like the animal research haters, cause new ideas to not even be tested. If they would just get out of the way and let science do its job... Much of today's real medicine was "alternative" once upon a time. Let science do what it does best, learn. Best of luck Fowlsound. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 97] Author : jimlintott Date : 23rd December 2005 04:10 PM If placebo is 20% effective that means I only need to take five of them to assure myself of a cure. Sorry, I was trying to come up with something as stupid as: Sure, but I wouldn't stop at one, I'd use several. How did I do? Actually I think love outdid that one with this gem: I merely point out it is your attitude that causes you to find it offensive rather than say, naive. love: I think he finds it offensive because he is not naive. FS: I read your paper. It makes a strong point. Hope you get well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 98] Author : supercorgi Date : 23rd December 2005 04:15 PM I know some people are going to tell me I'm wading around in woo for this but, I think there is good evidence that a person's psychological state can have definite effects on bodily illnesses. No, there are no mysterious powers or strange auras or supernatural entities involved, just the brains ability to do some amazing things. In this regard I tend to believe in the "holistic" approach to medicine. Having said all that a person would be a fool not to avail himself of every conventional medical remedy available. If I get sick I get myself to my local GP, but I do think my state of mind can help any recovery. The brain is poorly understood. My dad was in a nursing home for 6 years after unsuccessful brain surgery to remove a tumor. At first he was like a vegetable -- he couldn't speak, he couldn't feed himself, or move. He had a suizure and after that he could speak, feed himself, and at least move a little bit. At the current time, I believe that brain surgery is partly voodoo science. They know very little -- some but not by any stretch of the imagination everything. They are feeling in the dark yet it is still far ahead of the days when they did trepination to relieve brain swelling. Well enough of my persona experiences. Fowlsound, I'm sorry that you have to go through this. Knowing you from your postings, I'm sure you'll go through it with aplomb and dignity. I admire you and wish you the best in your treatment and hope you'll be with us for a very, very long time. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 99] Author : clarsct Date : 23rd December 2005 04:24 PM Y'know. I'd like to point out that any 'benefits' of a placebo effect would also occur by getting REAL MEDICAL HELP! I would feel better knowing a real doctor, who's studied for a number of years, has taken a look and is doing what he can to help. If I had cancer, I would be in a hospital so fast, it'd make your damn head spin. I don't care what the cost. I may be paying off hospital bills for the rest of my existence, but I would HAVE the rest of my existence to do so! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 100] Author : brodski Date : 23rd December 2005 04:30 PM Brilliant. The thing that bothers me the most about alternative medicine is when it is simply shoved off. Government regulation mainly, and some others like the animal research haters, cause new ideas to not even be tested. If they would just get out of the way and let science do its job... Much of today's real medicine was "alternative" once upon a time. Let science do what it does best, learn. Best of luck Fowlsound. I'm having this argument over at another forum at the moment. I'll start by saying, there is no "big pharma"/ government conspiract to prevent research into any aspect of medicine, and many parts of the SCAM industry are big enough to fund proper research into theri methods, they just choose not to. I've yet to hear a good explantion for this which does not show teh SCAMers as living up to theri name. In my opinion the dividing line between woo and real medicine is not necessarily the evidence base, but the willingness to use proper scientific methods to establish an evidence base. A fantastic recent example of this was the Nobel prize for research in stomach ulcers, ok so they where going against conventional understanding in suggesting a bacterial cause, but they went away and did good research to prove their point, they didn't just rely on patient testimonials and conspiracy theories. Of course once the tests have been done, then the dividing line between woo and medicine is the evidence base. Oh and on the "positive thinking" aspect of symptom control, the best "alternative" remedy my sister ever had was from a programme called "look good, feel better" which was a group of beauticians who offered their services for free for young women going through chemo. Didn't do a darn thing to help her cancer but it sure did help her get through the emotional turmoil of loosing her hair. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 101] Author : brodski Date : 23rd December 2005 04:34 PM Y'know. I'd like to point out that any 'benefits' of a placebo effect would also occur by getting REAL MEDICAL HELP! You know I feel kind of stupid posting this (a common ocurance for me on these boards) but I never actualy though of that argument. Its one of those statements whcih is so oviously true, that I never actualy thought about it. I'll certianly be using it in the future! Cheers :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 102] Author : ysabella Date : 23rd December 2005 05:31 PM Fowlsound, wow. Great paper, thank you for sharing, and all the best of outcomes on the arm problem. The best of health to you in 2006 and onward! If anybody decides to supplement their medical treatment with placebos, be sure to use red ones. Studies have shown they are more effective. There's some form of a vitamin B that is popular as an injected placebo as it's a cheerful bright red. One pitfall I might point out in feel-good ideas about medical treatment. You might feel better having a friendly, social doctor with a great bedside manner who you find relaxing. But if it comes down to a tricky surgery where your friendly doctor has a 78% success rate, and there's another guy who's a jerk but has a 97% success rate...who should you pick? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 103] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 05:33 PM Fowlsound, wow. Great paper, thank you for sharing, and all the best of outcomes on the arm problem. The best of health to you in 2006 and onward! If anybody decides to supplement their medical treatment with placebos, be sure to use red ones. Studies have shown they are more effective. There's some form of a vitamin B that is popular as an injected placebo as it's a cheerful bright red. One pitfall I might point out in feel-good ideas about medical treatment. You might feel better having a friendly, social doctor with a great bedside manner who you find relaxing. But if it comes down to a tricky surgery where your friendly doctor has a 78% success rate, and there's another guy who's a jerk but has a 97% success rate...who should you pick? I go with the jerk. Luckily, my neurosurgeon that rebuilt my spine was not only a very warm, caring man but top in the country in spinal tumors. MD from Harvard, PhD from MIT and 12 years heading up a nuerosurgery department in Philly. This is not always the case. another big point of advice: Find out the numbers on your doctor! Make sure you have someone with good success rates. In the beginning of all this, my nuerosurgeon said "I really think you need this surgery immediately." and I said "And you're the guy to do it. I've read your stats. They're damn good. When can you cut me?" He was floored. and very flattered. Know who you are dealing with. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 104] Author : RSLancastr Date : 23rd December 2005 05:55 PM I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible.Or perhaps the pain would have subsided at that point on its own, even if you hadn't taken anything. (Sorry if someone else already said it - I haven't finished the thread yet.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 105] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd December 2005 05:59 PM Or perhaps the pain would have subsided at that point on its own, even if you hadn't taken anything. (Sorry if someone else already said it - I haven't finished the thread yet.) Be sure to check the split in AAH for some blood boiling anger. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 106] Author : Amapola Date : 23rd December 2005 06:09 PM I do not know if "enjoy" is the right word to say, but I did "enjoy" reading your paper, even though the subject is not about fun. I could relate to so much, in a small way! My father (who was a scientist) died of cancer this year, and he too got the same thing about how he should try "everything" and "what could it hurt" etc. etc. I will tell you how it could have hurt him - he had so little energy towards the end, it could have used all that energy up and for nothing. Instead he had the best doctor he could find, a man of science he could speak with and work with, and then he used his energy to spend his last moments with his family. We had offers to send him to some place in Mexico where he could drink juice and get enemas every day. The neighbors even insisted on sending some guy to my father's house, to "assess" him and see if his particular type of enemas would cure him. One woman gave us a free bottle of Tahitian Noni juice, claiming it would cure him. I ask you!!! We took the Noni juice and all the pamphlets to show him, thinking it might bring a smile to his face because is was so ludicrous. We also had offers to send him to some clinic in TX (I think that is where it is) to do some other goofy procedure. So my father could have spent his last days in airports, traveling all over Kingdom Come chasing a chimaera of lost hope, instead of getting the very best medical care available, being as comfortable as possible and being with his family. In my opinion, those goofy "cures" would have been very damaging indeed. It is just amazing what science has done for you, Fowlsound. Your neurosurgeon must be incredibly good. I join the others in wishing you the best. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 107] Author : AnotherSillyAlias Date : 23rd December 2005 06:21 PM We had offers to send him to some place in Mexico where he could drink juice and get enemas every day. The neighbors even insisted on sending some guy to my father's house, to "assess" him and see if his particular type of enemas would cure him. One woman gave us a free bottle of Tahitian Noni juice, claiming it would cure him. I ask you!!! We took the Noni juice and all the pamphlets to show him, thinking it might bring a smile to his face because is was so ludicrous. We also had offers to send him to some clinic in TX (I think that is where it is) to do some other goofy procedure. So my father could have spent his last days in airports, traveling all over Kingdom Come chasing a chimaera of lost hope, instead of getting the very best medical care available, being as comfortable as possible and being with his family. In my opinion, those goofy "cures" would have been very damaging indeed. An excellent tale and a small island of sanity in a sea of woo. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 108] Author : Rockin' Rick Date : 23rd December 2005 06:25 PM My father had cancer, a nerve tumor behind the ear. After going through numerous doctors and tests, asking for opinions, etc., we found one of the very best at the time, when others claimed inoperable this guy was ready for the challenge. Long story short, after radiation treatment, which is rough going, he survived the cancer. He later passed do to pneumonia after having a stroke or two, he was weak after the cancer. A close friend of mine's father is suffering from esophagus cancer, and a variety unknown to science only a few years ago. He went through surgery and chemotherapy, but it has spread, they have exhausted every option they know of. I know several others that have battled the big C. I understand the issues against "big pharma". But it's no different than wealth envy. I don't hate Bill Gates, I have no reason to, not for his wealth. But some do. No, "big pharma" does not wish us to be sick. They most certainly stand to make more money on a cure than from research. But they are huge companies, they only do what is good for business. While they don't want us ill, they will just cash in on the fact that we get ill. That isn't a vast conspiracy, it's just business. The reference to automobiles is a little iffy. Car makers have had better technology in front of them, yet fail to bring it to market. It's very much about the money. They do what works for them today. BP (British Petroleum) for example, we think of them as an oil/fuel company. They are actually an energy company. They have interests in natural gas, wind, and are one of the world's largest producers of solar energy products. Big tobacco, they didn't fortify cigarettes with all those chemicals to harm us, they did it to sell cigarettes. These sort of things happen all the time. So I get it, I understand the concern, but lets take a good scientific look at the situation and not just flip out. To tell a cancer patient that chewing on tea leaves will cure them or some such craziness is just infuriating. I like the talk about vitamin C. While it is has been found to be truly remarkable it certainly cannot repair defective DNA. What I've heard about it is that cancer patients should NOT use vitamin C. It works so well that it can actually help cancer cells fight off chemotherapy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 109] Author : ysabella Date : 23rd December 2005 07:25 PM I go with the jerk. Luckily, my neurosurgeon that rebuilt my spine was not only a very warm, caring man but top in the country in spinal tumors. MD from Harvard, PhD from MIT and 12 years heading up a nuerosurgery department in Philly. This is not always the case. another big point of advice: Find out the numbers on your doctor! Make sure you have someone with good success rates. You make every kind of sense to me, Fowlsound. And excellent job on checking out your doctors - every patient should be so empowered! :star: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 110] Author : bruto Date : 23rd December 2005 11:08 PM It seems pretty obvious that the placebo effect works best if you believe in the therapy. Since fowlsound believes in science, he gets a very good package. I do have one observation, which I hope one doesn't find too "woo-ish" with regard to Vitamin C. Some years ago, my sister was suffering from Leukemia (which killed her, by the way, as Acute Myelogenous Leukemia often does, and certainly did in 1976), and during the chemotherapy she had various problems which her husband suspected involved, among other things, scurvy. It's unfortunately the case that many doctors and nurses do not read all the literature on the drugs they use, and several of the antibiotics, as well as the chemo, listed scurvy as a potential side effect. The doctors, in the belief that more than a little bit of vitamin C is wasted, poo-poohed this idea. It was quite a battle to get them to give her as much as a gram a day, which turned out to be beneficial after all. The funny thing was that the doctors also did not communicate with each other. When one or the other of us asked about vitamin C, one doctor would say something like "Well, I don't believe in it, except that it has been shown to shorten a cold somewhat." Another would say the same thing, except that it's been shown to do something else useful. And so on down the line. If you took the statements of each doctor, and listed the one property they were sure vitamin C had, it would appear to be pretty good stuff. Well, anyway, we know it prevents scurvy! And beet juice really does prevent potassium depletion too. All of which is a long-winded way of reminding Fowlsound that it's a good idea to do your own research on side effects, and don't forget to do a little science of your own. Vitamin C, for example, will of course not cure your cancer even a little bit, and not having taken a zillion grams a day did not cause it either, but if, for example, you're on chemotherapy and three potent antibiotics to keep you from dying of infection in the meantime (good medicine without argument), it may turn out that you need more, because the drugs steal it. Of course this may be better understood now than it was in 1975-6 when the story of my sister occurred, but a little extra research never hurts. If you do end up needing more therapy, get a Physician's Desk Reference. Those nasty greedy big pharma conspirators everybody hates did a LOT of research, and wrote it all down too. There's more than some busy doctors have the time to read. Rounding out the story of my sister, she did indeed die, but she died of leukemia. The therapy did not work, but it also did not kill her first. This is not as common an outcome as one might expect, because the therapy must be as drastic as the disease is. At least a part of the credit for this belongs, I think, to the extra care she and others on her behalf took to do their own research. Well, it sounds as if Fowlsound has some good doctors out there, and I hope they continue to prove it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 111] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 23rd December 2005 11:50 PM People sometimes have an idea that chemotherapy is almost as bad as the disease (cancer). This is BS. Most of the time chemo is much better than the disease. While the only cancer I have had is skin cancer (basal cell carcinoma) there are many people I have known who went through chemo and most of them do pretty well. Chemo has improved much along the lines of the over all experience for the patient. There are times when it may be worse but those are relatively rare. eta: If you are wondering where this is coming from I heard someone I know refused radiation and chemo because she wanted to keep her hair and I know she is allready doing herbs and other crap. I hope the surgeons got it all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 112] Author : Badly Shaved Monkey Date : 24th December 2005 02:01 AM Do you want to gamble your life on the placebo effect? It is not 100%. It's more like 20% (or somewhere around there. med folks, help me out with that #?) There is no PLACEBO that cures CANCER. I do use homeopathy. Last time I had dental pain, for example, I treated myself using a homeopathic remedy. I guess I am just one of those 20%. Perhaps I am extra suggestible. Hey, Fowlsound. I've only just seen this thread. Sorry to hear the bad news. Just a couple of things to say to our esteemed interlocutor from the Planet Woo. But, first a clarification that others have also made. I think your guess of 20% is way off for a 'real' placebo effect, i.e. an effect created by the patient's mind on their disease state, as distinct from coincidental recovery or the effects of co-factors like lifestyle canges. A figure of 20% might apply to diseases that are largely psychosomatic in origin. It might also apply in a different way to diseases where there is no good objective way of measuring the response so when a patient tunes their repsonses to make the therapist happy there is no way of contradicting that report. For proper physical diseases I expect that a real response to placebo is close to zero. If you look at discussions of sCAMers' claims, a 'real' placebo effect is sometimes invoked by the sceptical side almost as a means of not giving unnecessary offence to the woo side. But, the diseases under discussion will almost always be exactly those that allow patients to misrepresent their own condition or ones where the patient's attitude to the disease will have a very obvious link to the disease itself, such as... "Last time I had dental pain" I can't quite believe I'm having to say this, 'love' , but you have just likened your trivial dental pain to bone cancer and have insisted that just because your toothache got better at some point after you took a sugar pill then Fowlsound's cancer will go away if he also takes such a pill. If you cannot see the gross asymmetry in these circumstances then you have no right to say anything at all. In the end, I believe people heal when they take responsibility for their own health. This quote bears repeating for the health-Nazi crap that it is. It is the ultimate get-out clause for every despicable fraudulent woo. If the disease doesn't get better it is the patient's fault. It absolves you of the need to ever reconsider your crackpot belief system. Beyond anything else this is what makes enthusiastic support for alt.med. so loathesome. Sadly, you may have become so brainwashed that when some horrible disease befalls you, you might still believe this lie. Let's try a question for you, 'love. What will you do when the time comes or are you making plans for immortality? Frustratingly, when a sCAMmer is finally dying they will surely disappear from public awareness and probably have more on their minds than making a humiliating public recantation. sCAM = the crazed well preying on the ignorant sick. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 113] Author : Badly Shaved Monkey Date : 24th December 2005 02:10 AM People sometimes have an idea that chemotherapy is almost as bad as the disease (cancer). This is BS. Most of the time chemo is much better than the disease. While the only cancer I have had is skin cancer (basal cell carcinoma) there are many people I have known who went through chemo and most of them do pretty well. Chemo has improved much along the lines of the over all experience for the patient. There are times when it may be worse but those are relatively rare. eta: If you are wondering where this is coming from I heard someone I know refused radiation and chemo because she wanted to keep her hair and I know she is allready doing herbs and other crap. I hope the surgeons got it all. Wife of a friend of my father had breast Ca. Breast-obsessed husband supported her rejection of surgery and conventional drugs in favour of the full Californian woo-package. Tumour became disgusting festering mess. Wife is now dead. Placebo effect mysteriously failed to kick in. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 114] Author : brodski Date : 24th December 2005 05:00 AM sCAM = the crazed well preying on the ignorant sick. I'll say it again, its worse than that, many people facing a potentially fatal condition are willing to "try anything" regardless of whearther they know it will work or not. Preying on the desperate sick is much more profitable than to prey on those who are potentially facing death, they tend to be much more willing to part with their life's savings. :mad: Street robbery is a much more honest living. Fowsound is a credit to rational peipel everywhere for fighting agianst this crap. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 115] Author : brodski Date : 24th December 2005 05:03 AM Wife of a friend of my father had breast Ca. Breast-obsessed husband supported her rejection of surgery and conventional drugs in favour of the full Californian woo-package. Tumour became disgusting festering mess. Wife is now dead. Placebo effect mysteriously failed to kick in. it's ok, Imsure some "well meaning" woo somewhere will console teh humsband that his wife didnt realy want to get better, or that she didnt belive hard enough in the woo, or some other crap. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 116] Author : John Jackson Date : 24th December 2005 05:15 AM I would like to say thanks to ‘love’ for contrasting fowlshound’s paper so well. (S)he is a perfect example of the sort of idiotic thinking that leads to needless suffering and death in patients. Whenever I get the “what’s the harm?” question asked, I try to get it across to people that there’s little harm in irrational beliefs while things are going well; it’s at life’s crisis points that they become harmful. ‘love’ is a great example of this blissful ignorance, and is someone who’s set themselves up to discover the power of hindsight. ‘love’, if you’re still reading, I’d read fowlshound’s paper again (properly this time) and take heed of the message: it might just save your life one day. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 117] Author : bruto Date : 24th December 2005 06:19 AM People sometimes have an idea that chemotherapy is almost as bad as the disease (cancer). This is BS. Most of the time chemo is much better than the disease. While the only cancer I have had is skin cancer (basal cell carcinoma) there are many people I have known who went through chemo and most of them do pretty well. Chemo has improved much along the lines of the over all experience for the patient. There are times when it may be worse but those are relatively rare. eta: If you are wondering where this is coming from I heard someone I know refused radiation and chemo because she wanted to keep her hair and I know she is allready doing herbs and other crap. I hope the surgeons got it all. I did not intend to imply that the chemo is always almost as bad as the disease, but in some instances it can be pretty drastic. I don't know how much refinement the treatment for AML has become, for example, though I still see some of the same substances mentioned, but that treatment consists in essentially killing off one's bone marrow in the hope that this will kill off the disease. It's more or less like draining a pond to get rid of an invasive fish. Since messing up the marrow is more or less what the leukemia does, the chemo I saw did pretty much seem like a very acute bout of the disease, topped off with a number of other side effects such as nausea bad enough to require constant IV feeding, and of course an openness to infection which required massive doses of antibiotics of enough varieties to cover the maximum spectrum. Add to this that the therapy is of course undertaken only if the patient is already very very sick. My sister had chemo several times during the year she was being treated, and at least one of those times, it was begun only after her hematocrit had dropped to the single digits and she was receiving packed red cells on a daily basis. This is not a healthy way to start your day. All of which adds up to a situation in which ordinary daily nutrition, for example, may not suffice, and is not possible anyway. My father also had chemo and radiation for malignant melanoma. Again, this was long ago, and the treatments have undoubtedly changed (I hope, in his memory, that they've become more effective at least), but it was certainly no picnic. I will not bother with any further horror stories about busy hospitals, unread charts, conflicting orders, etc., which do occasionally occur, excpet to say that even under the highest-quality care, if you have a complex and dangerous condition, it's a good idea to keep track of what is going on and be your own advocate. This is not in any way disparaging or discouraging the use of chemotherapy, which often works, and is a almost certainly a best for cases with a good prognosis, and the only bet for those without, but this is one area where you might benefit from what might be called a "holistic" approach (though I hesitate to borrow that word back from the woos who have stolen it). Doctors and nurses often seem to know or care very little about nutrition, and tend to concentrate on the particular task they're involved with. I found that this is especially true of the hotshot research doctors one may meet when one is undergoing cutting-edge therapy. They are very good at treating the cancer, but less so at treating the patient. Drink lotsa juice! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 118] Author : TruthSeeker Date : 24th December 2005 09:31 AM Wife of a friend of my father had breast Ca. Breast-obsessed husband supported her rejection of surgery and conventional drugs in favour of the full Californian woo-package. Tumour became disgusting festering mess. Wife is now dead. Placebo effect mysteriously failed to kick in. This, unfortunately, is more common than one would assume. Fear of losing the male partner has been identified as a factor in the delay to have suspicious lumps investigated and then in rejecting surgery. "He's a breast man" "He loves my breasts" "He'll leave me for someone with two breasts" Men worry about impotence after prostate cancer surgery as well. Horribly sad. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 119] Author : Roadtoad Date : 24th December 2005 12:50 PM Well, as a self confessed "breast man," I'd rather see her do without than lose her to something as stupid as vanity. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 120] Author : Iamme Date : 24th December 2005 02:58 PM I think homeopathy would be the choice for anyone who has unlimited time to which to experiment. But if you were ultimately given a death sentence of like 6 months to live, I think you would realize that whole grain breads, organic water, magnets, accupuncture, Vitamin C, Omega -3, etc., etc., is not going to extinguish the raging inferno within you. Perhaps if one lived a life of this stuff before the disease, perhaps no disease. But only perhaps. There are other factors where good diets and excercize aren't going to guarantee you a healthful life of 100 years. Kevin Trudeau's claim that reversing your ph balance can actually prevent and REVERSE existing cancer is quite the bolsterous claim. Either it can or it can't. But if I had cancer, I would indeed try to look into that claim quite seriously. But, it does sound like a stretch, that something so easy could cure it. I think someone posted regarding this (on an original Kevin Trudeau thread a few months? back), that if you achieved that ph balance reversal, that then you would die of THAT. I know a neighbor that has cancer in his lungs, liver and shoulder. Any one of these cancers could have killed him. He actually went into remission for quite a while after standard medical treatment. They aren't looking for him to make it though. But, I believe he would have been dead already if it weren't for those standard treatments he has gotten. I am fascinated by "remission". I can't understand what causes the cancer to shut down for a while, then restart up. You would think that medical science would have found the cause (of remission) and used this to solve the cure, long ago, because of some clue, regarding remissions. Could it be that there is an oscillation effect where the tumors need and get a lot of blood?...and then the blood supply can't keep up with the tumor(s) after a while?...so the tumor stops growing?...but then collaterals develop and the tumor gets more blood once again, and so the cancer takes off once again? I have heard that some of the lastest tumor fighting drugs are those that supress blood flow to the tumor. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 121] Author : Roadtoad Date : 24th December 2005 05:31 PM Whoa. Wait a loooooong second. Even if I had unlimited resources of time and money, there's no way in hell I'd ever go with a homeopathic regimen. For one thing, why would you waste any resource, regardless of its supply? That's just plain stupid. For another, consider that your actions have an impact on others. Prince Charles and his imbecilic remarks about homeopathy have, no doubt, led others to think there's something right with drinking tap water that's had its "memory" tweaked, or taking megadoses of vitamins. Everyone has a certain amount of influence with people, and trying to cure yourself of a fatal disease with psuedoscientific methods only suggests to those same people that there's something acceptable in this. Ultimately, you wind up creating the wholly false impression that this regimen has any effectiveness against cancer. This will lead some poor schmoo who has even less in the way of resources to you to empty their bank account and ultimately surrender their lives for the sake of someone else's greed. Bad idea. Sorry. I think homeopathy should be outlawed, or at least parked in the back seat where it belongs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 122] Author : bruto Date : 24th December 2005 07:40 PM I think homeopathy would be the choice for anyone who has unlimited time to which to experiment. But if you were ultimately given a death sentence of like 6 months to live, I think you would realize that whole grain breads, organic water, magnets, accupuncture, Vitamin C, Omega -3, etc., etc., is not going to extinguish the raging inferno within you. Perhaps if one lived a life of this stuff before the disease, perhaps no disease. But only perhaps. There are other factors where good diets and excercize aren't going to guarantee you a healthful life of 100 years. Kevin Trudeau's claim that reversing your ph balance can actually prevent and REVERSE existing cancer is quite the bolsterous claim. Either it can or it can't. But if I had cancer, I would indeed try to look into that claim quite seriously. But, it does sound like a stretch, that something so easy could cure it. I think someone posted regarding this (on an original Kevin Trudeau thread a few months? back), that if you achieved that ph balance reversal, that then you would die of THAT. I know a neighbor that has cancer in his lungs, liver and shoulder. Any one of these cancers could have killed him. He actually went into remission for quite a while after standard medical treatment. They aren't looking for him to make it though. But, I believe he would have been dead already if it weren't for those standard treatments he has gotten. I am fascinated by "remission". I can't understand what causes the cancer to shut down for a while, then restart up. You would think that medical science would have found the cause (of remission) and used this to solve the cure, long ago, because of some clue, regarding remissions. Could it be that there is an oscillation effect where the tumors need and get a lot of blood?...and then the blood supply can't keep up with the tumor(s) after a while?...so the tumor stops growing?...but then collaterals develop and the tumor gets more blood once again, and so the cancer takes off once again? I have heard that some of the lastest tumor fighting drugs are those that supress blood flow to the tumor. I have to agree with Roadtoad on this one. Just because I expect to live another 30 or 40 years, I am not going to spend half of that learning to like the taste of urine either, just because some mystics think it's good for me. Many people have experimented with homeopathy and other quack cures in the long and short terms, and it's not gotten any better. Real scientific medicine, despite its occasional shortcomings, does get better. In the case of cancer, since early intervention is one of the most important factors in success, I would never waste my time on quackery even if my illness was relatively slow acting. I also think you have to make a distinction between the healthy living that helps us to fend off disease, and the reverse idea that quacks often tout that presence of a disease like cancer proves that you did something wrong (and of course they know what it is). Those religious meddlers who try to tell you god is mad at you and you should pray the thing away are in the same class. If you live a healthy life and have a good attitude, you will probably improve your odds of not getting some diseases, and you will probably improve your odds of surviving the ones you get, but some people will get these things anyway, no matter what they do. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 123] Author : epepke Date : 24th December 2005 10:18 PM The rate for spontaneous remission from cancer is about 4% Those are really poor odds. They're still large enough to convince a lot of reality-challenged people that stuffing beet slivers in your nostrils or learning how to do the Hokey-Pokey backward cures cancer. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 124] Author : Blue Mountain Date : 25th December 2005 12:42 AM Thread Title : A Very Personal Account For Sure Well, the paper is certainly a personal one! I for one prefer to keep my writing at a more impersonal level. However, I'm not sure which approach makes more of an impact. It may depend on your target audience. The arguments you make are sound, and the examples drawn from your own experience are powerful. But phrases such as "Are you really such a half-wit, mouth breathing moron as to believe that BS?" could well cause some of your audience to stop reading right there. You also tripped over "its" vs "it's" on page 6. (Sorry, it's the grammar panda bear in me.) On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 125] Author : brodski Date : 25th December 2005 07:13 AM On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around. You touch on a valid criticism of the pharmaceutical industry here, in that resources are directed to research based on a profit motive rather than actual need. For instance in recent years more has been spent on research into anti impotence drugs than anti malarial drugs, as there is a greater demand for the former in wealth nations, though the impact on overall human well being would be helped much more by the latter. However there are enough real medical conditions which are currently untreatable to provide a good enough market for real medicine, without inventing new conditions. Also, consider that real medicine, in many countries, has to prove itself effective (as well as safe) in order to be licensed, you'll have a job proving that your treatments is effective against a condition, if you can't show that any of your test subjects actually had the condition in the first place. The real growth industry for new conditions is in SCAM practitioners, as it always has been. Whereas you can o to your GP and be given a clean bill of health, I don't think a homeopath has ever met a healthy person! A woo will always be able;l to find a "condition" to "treat", that's the wonderful thing abou placebo, its even more effective against imaginary diseases than real ones! (edited beceasue I can't type, or spell) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 126] Author : fyslee Date : 25th December 2005 09:08 AM It's when you take the sCAM instead of traditional medicine that is offensive. Even when you take it at the same time, when it comes to cancer, it'll decrease your survival chances by 30%. To find this statistic (since I can't post links yet) you'll have to do this Google search: "The Quack-Files: Cancer Survival & Alternative Medicine" That will take you to the page on my website. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 127] Author : fyslee Date : 25th December 2005 09:14 AM It's when you take the sCAM instead of traditional medicine that is offensive. For more about the acronym sCAM (ALWAYS spelled with a small "s"....;-), do this search: "The Quack-Files" "scam commitment" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 128] Author : brodski Date : 25th December 2005 09:23 AM Even when you take it at the same time, when it comes to cancer, it'll decrease your survival chances by 30%. To find this statistic (since I can't post links yet) you'll have to do this Google search: "The Quack-Files: Cancer Survival & Alternative Medicine" That will take you to the page on my website. Here you go Fyslee, & welcoem to the forum! http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/cancer_norway.html or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=12565991&dopt=Citation I've only read the adstracts, but does the paper claim that Suuplemtary, Complementary and Alternitive Medice (S.C.A.M- its allwasy usefull to ahve an excuse to include the "s") actualy harms you in ways oterh than drainbign your wallet? Or is it that those who fall under teh spell of tehse conmen are either A) allready desperite in other words they are allready the are the worst cases, or B) delaying real treatment and plaicign theri fith in whale music and vitimin C? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 129] Author : fyslee Date : 25th December 2005 01:15 PM I've only read the adstracts, but does the paper claim that Suuplemtary, Complementary and Alternitive Medice (S.C.A.M- its allwasy usefull to ahve an excuse to include the "s") actualy harms you in ways oterh than drainbign your wallet? Or is it that those who fall under teh spell of tehse conmen are either A) allready desperite in other words they are allready the are the worst cases, or B) delaying real treatment and plaicign theri fith in whale music and vitimin C? It depends on what form of sCAM is used. Some are definitely harmful, while most are most likely benign. From an ethical and economic standpoint they are unjustified. I suspect that the mentality of many users of sCAM methods leads them to put off seeking proper help, which itself would worsen their prognosis. Whatever the case, it isn't proven that using sCAM improves their prognosis in any way. While feeling empowered, more relaxed, and more peaceful, aren't bad things at all (quality of life is a many factored matter....), they likewise have no proven effect on their prognosis. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 130] Author : fyslee Date : 25th December 2005 01:33 PM Hi Fowlsound, I have posted a link to your story at "Confessions of a Quackbuster". Regards, Paul Lee, PT -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 131] Author : Iamme Date : 25th December 2005 02:44 PM I have to agree with Roadtoad on this one. Just because I expect to live another 30 or 40 years................................................ I would never waste my time on quackery even if my illness was relatively slow acting. But for one to sort thru what is quackery and what isn't, is the $64,000 question. There is a health center somewheres in the US that believes they can clean out your arteries for you, by chelation. Chelation is used to remove heavy metals from a person also. Yet some, regard the artery cleaning by chelation as quakery. But IS it? And then you hear of these quack clinics that give statistics claiming high cure rates. You get to where you don't know who or what to believe, regarding this stuff. Some have said that coral calcium is quakery. Yet, there is SOME reason why Okanawans live so long. And I'll bet it's not because they are being filled with prescription drugs. If you are eating the right food (whatever that is) and breathing clean air, and drinking food water, and excercizing in some reasonable fashion (I doubt these people run marathons everyday)...I think there is a melding of that line drawn in the sand as to where homeopathy/unusual diets start, and where quakery takes off from there. If one engages in some natural remedy, it may work because the immunde system is stronger while engaged in this behavior. So it becomes a two-fold process for the good. Not only from the standpoint that you are taking into your body that which nourishes it best, but that you are strengthening the bodies ability to ward off disease..and cancer. Obviodsly, these people must not have a lot of early fatal cancers, etiher. (They probably don't eat foods with injected hormones galore, or eat weiners with nirtrates/nitrites in them, etc.) Maybe Googling Mexican homeopathic clinics will yield some good reading. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 132] Author : Iamme Date : 25th December 2005 02:58 PM On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around. This is what Kevin Trudeau says. So...do you believe in what he says then? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 133] Author : Mojo Date : 25th December 2005 03:05 PM But for one to sort thru what is quackery and what isn't, is the $64,000 question.We have a method that can accomplish this: double-blinded placebo controlled trials. Have any properly controlled trials of the therapies you mention been carried out? If so, what were the results? Anything that is demonstrated to work will be rapidly adopted by the medical profession in general, not just carried out by "a health center somewheres in the US". Someone* posted a joke on the forum recently: Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works? A: Medicine. *Sorry, I can't remember who it was. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 134] Author : Roadtoad Date : 25th December 2005 03:20 PM But for one to sort thru what is quackery and what isn't, is the $64,000 question. See Mojo's answer to this. There is a health center somewheres in the US that believes they can clean out your arteries for you, by chelation. Chelation is used to remove heavy metals from a person also. Yet some, regard the artery cleaning by chelation as quakery. But IS it? If my doctor wouldn't recommend it, and my doctor is someone I can trust, why would I try this? I'm not sufficient versed in science, unfortunately, but anything that sounds like mumbo-jumbo, I'm checking with someone who is so versed. And then you hear of these quack clinics that give statistics claiming high cure rates. When I put a bid out for work to be done, either professionally or personally, the first thing I do is toss out anyone whose bid is too high or too low. Either one will screw you. Anyone making a claim for a high cure rate, without someone operating on the outside auditing those claims, will not have me on their doorstep anytime soon. You get to where you don't know who or what to believe, regarding this stuff. It's simple. Find someone you can trust first. They can help you through it. Some have said that coral calcium is quakery. Yet, there is SOME reason why Okanawans live so long. And I'll bet it's not because they are being filled with prescription drugs. If you are eating the right food (whatever that is) and breathing clean air, and drinking food water, and excercizing in some reasonable fashion (I doubt these people run marathons everyday)...I think there is a melding of that line drawn in the sand as to where homeopathy/unusual diets start, and where quakery takes off from there. Considering the number of medical researchers and MD's who have said the coral calcium nonsense is BS, and they have the training and skill to know why it's BS, I'd say at that point that knowing where the quackery starts is easier and easier to find. And Homeopathy and Unusual Diets fall well within that range. If one engages in some natural remedy, it may work because the immunde system is stronger while engaged in this behavior. So it becomes a two-fold process for the good. Not only from the standpoint that you are taking into your body that which nourishes it best, but that you are strengthening the bodies ability to ward off disease..and cancer. Obviodsly, these people must not have a lot of early fatal cancers, etiher. (They probably don't eat foods with injected hormones galore, or eat weiners with nirtrates/nitrites in them, etc.) Sorry, but your statement ignores the reality that lifespans are growing, and there's little evidence hormones and nitrates/nitrites have caused cancer, from what I can see. I eat natural foods when I can find them because 1.) I like sustainable agriculture, and 2.) I like the taste better. I've yet to run across solid evidence that natural foods and that sort of thing is necessarily better from a medical standpoint. Maybe Googling Mexican homeopathic clinics will yield some good reading. So will a visit to an adult bookstore, but I wouldn't take their advice on how to preserve my marriage. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 135] Author : Iamme Date : 25th December 2005 03:45 PM Roadtoad: If my doctor wouldn't recommend it, and my doctor is someone I can trust, why would I try this? I'm not sufficient versed in science, unfortunately, but anything that sounds like mumbo-jumbo, I'm checking with someone who is so versed. Iamme: But coming form Kevin Trudeau's school of thinking...the doctors are taught the way they teach doctors; to use pills and to operate. The status quo, for the last hundred years or whatever. Your doctor could very well mean well, but be outside the loop in anything that isn't endorsed by the MDA. I am old enough to have learned within MY occupation that there are a lot of people out there, who you even think are pros...who are specialists, who they themnselves don't have all the answers, or have simply overlooked things. They only work with what they have been taught in and know about. And even THEN they don't know it all. And some people are just plain sharper than others. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 136] Author : Iamme Date : 25th December 2005 03:57 PM Roadtoad: Sorry, but your statement ignores the reality that lifespans are growing, and there's little evidence hormones and nitrates/nitrites have caused cancer, from what I can see. I eat natural foods when I can find them because 1.) I like sustainable agriculture, and 2.) I like the taste better. I've yet to run across solid evidence that natural foods and that sort of thing is necessarily better from a medical standpoint. Iamme: But common sense will you that anything that deviates from our genetic makeup and it's evolutionary trail of how we got to where we are at (and this don't include eating chickens that are artificially matured in weeks), or nitrates, etc....could very well be a cause for cancer. I think most cancers are caused by irritants at the cellular level. Therefore the idea to stay clear of irritants would be common sense. If a person had a slow growing cancer, let's say. One where a person had some time to make some deciisons. You mean you would not want to first look at some of the other options besides chemo and radiation which very well may cure you of your cancer, but then cause a new cancer because of THAT some years down the road? Wouldn't you be tempted to get ahold of a quack clinic and see if they had, let's say, some famous clients, who you could personally contact, at least? Of course I'm not so stupid and gullible to just take the clinics word for their claims. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 137] Author : bruto Date : 25th December 2005 04:07 PM Roadtoad: Sorry, but your statement ignores the reality that lifespans are growing, and there's little evidence hormones and nitrates/nitrites have caused cancer, from what I can see. I eat natural foods when I can find them because 1.) I like sustainable agriculture, and 2.) I like the taste better. I've yet to run across solid evidence that natural foods and that sort of thing is necessarily better from a medical standpoint. Iamme: But common sense will you that anything that deviates from our genetic makeup and it's evolutionary trail of how we got to where we are at (and this don't include eating chickens that are artificially matured in weeks), or nitrates, etc....could very well be a cause for cancer. I think most cancers are caused by irritants at the cellular level. Therefore the idea to stay clear of irritants would be common sense. If a person had a slow growing cancer, let's say. One where a person had some time to make some deciisons. You mean you would not want to first look at some of the other options besides chemo and radiation which very well may cure you of your cancer, but then cause a new cancer because of THAT some years down the road? Wouldn't you be tempted to get ahold of a quack clinic and see if they had, let's say, some famous clients, who you could personally contact, at least? Of course I'm not so stupid and gullible to just take the clinics word for their claims. If I had a slow growing cancer I would certainly not go to some quack clinic and ask for references from survivors. All I would get from that is anecdotal evidence. I would try some research to see if the practices of that quack clinic had been subjected to scientific testing, and if so, what that testing revealed. I would immediately discard any that have refused to do scientific testing or to publish results that can be reviewed and critiqued by other scientists That is not "forbidden science," that's no science at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 138] Author : Iamme Date : 25th December 2005 04:54 PM Bruto - You raise a good point. I suppose it's feasible that even the person sent home as being cured, for example, really may not be cured, but just thinks they are. So if I called or wrote that person, I would not really know what the truth is. Hmmmm. I guess I would have to tell the clinic that I have skeptical concerns and I'd have to see how they could show me that all these people are being cured better than the conventional way, and just see what kind of an answer I get. Maybe a legitimate place would say that some independent testing facility verifies some of their most remarkable cases, or something. You hear an awful lot from the homeopathy field that the reason for going for their approach is so that they can bolster your immune system to help fight the cancer. (As opposed to chemo and radiation that is supposed to destroy it, albeit supposedly they too give you stuff to help your immune system...at least now...but it wasn't always this way, I don't think...so maybe they got this out of the book on homeopathy?) I guess one would have to research if that(immune system building) really does any good or not. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 139] Author : Mojo Date : 25th December 2005 05:05 PM I guess I would have to tell the clinic that I have skeptical concerns and I'd have to see how they could show me that all these people are being cured better than the conventional way, and just see what kind of an answer I get. What you need for this is properly controlled testing, with properly published results. If the answer you get doesn't include properly controlled trials and peer review, don't trust it. Maybe a legitimate place would say that some independent testing facility verifies some of their most remarkable cases, or something.There's no point in asking about "their most remarkable cases". You'll just get a few cherry-picked examples at best. What you need to find out is whether patients receiving the treatment do better than patients who do not receive the treatment, and if so whether the treatment works better than other available treatments. For this you need properly controlled trials. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 140] Author : brodski Date : 25th December 2005 05:16 PM Iamme: But coming form Kevin Trudeau's school of thinking...the doctors are taught the way they teach doctors; to use pills and to operate. The status quo, for the last hundred years or whatever. Your doctor could very well mean well, but be outside the loop in anything that isn't endorsed by the MDA. . Thats why research papers are published, after peer review, and then if the results appears significant (in both the statistical and practical sense of the word) the experiments are replicated. anyone who can afford to subscribe to a medical journal can see the research and evaluate it for themselves. Dr's "show their working", quacks don't. Dr's may be stuck in their ways in some respects, but if you can provide proper evidence for your medical claims, then the medical world will change its mind (did you follow the news around the recent Nobel prize for medicine?) medicine today employs basically the same epistemology as medicine 100 years ago, but i dosent employ the same practical methods, unlike for instance homeopathy or herbalism, which are immune to changes based on newly arising evidence, as they are immune to evidence. Also remember, when it comes to cancer "big pharma" conspiracy theories really, really, really don't hold up, as there are large well funded charities conducting research in the treatment of cancer, they are not motivated by profit, but by a desire to conquer this terrible disease. But common sense will you that anything that deviates from our genetic makeup and it's evolutionary trail of how we got to where we are at (and this don't include eating chickens that are artificially matured in weeks), or nitrates, etc....could very well be a cause for cancer. I think most cancers are caused by irritants at the cellular level. Therefore the idea to stay clear of irritants would be common sense. . Common sense will also tell you that in a vacume a bowling ball will fall faster than a feather, all other things being equal. In fact they fall at the same rate, thats why experimental evidence trumps "common sense". medicine relies on evidence, not "gut feelings" "common sense" or folklore. You are making two claims here 1) Cancer is caused by "irritants at a cellular level" 2) "artificial" foods cause said irritation. Can you cite evidence for either? If a person had a slow growing cancer, let's say. One where a person had some time to make some deciisons. You mean you would not want to first look at some of the other options besides chemo and radiation which very well may cure you of your cancer, but then cause a new cancer because of THAT some years down the road? Wouldn't you be tempted to get ahold of a quack clinic and see if they had, let's say, some famous clients, who you could personally contact, at least? fyslee has posted evidence that shows that those people who choose SCAM for cancer treatment, even if they start conventional treatment at the same time ARE LESS LIKLEY TO LIVE than those who use only conventional treatments. SCAM not only wasts your time and money, but using it appease to REDUCE YOUR LONG TERM SURVIVAL RATE. Still seem like a good choice? Of course I'm not so stupid and gullible to just take the clinics word for their claims Yet you acknowledge that you respect some aspects of the medical philosophy of a rat-bag who has been convicted for making fraudulent health claims? You are right not to take the clinics claims for their treatments, ask for citations of published, peer reviewed research from a respectable journal. Abstracts are available for free on PubMed. I've studded no science since I was 16, but I've managed to get a hood ides of how to read a paper and asses werther it reaches trustworthy conclusions or not, most people have the capacity to do this, but many cant be bothered. thats the difference between skepticism and woo, woos say "trust us", skeptics say "look at the reliable evidence, then trust yourself". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 141] Author : brodski Date : 25th December 2005 05:34 PM You hear an awful lot from the homeopathy field that the reason for going for their approach is so that they can bolster your immune system to help fight the cancer. (As opposed to chemo and radiation that is supposed to destroy it, albeit supposedly they too give you stuff to help your immune system...at least now...but it wasn't always this way, I don't think...so maybe they got this out of the book on homeopathy?) I guess one would have to research if that(immune system building) really does any good or not. You hear an awful lot from the homeopathy field period. A lot of it self contradictory. Anyway, the questions you have to ask are do those using homeopathy get better more often than patients not using homeopathy? do those using homeopathy get better more quickly than patients not using homeopathy? and do those using homeopathy stay well for longer than patients not using homeopathy? until you can answer "yes" to any of these questions the "hows" and "whys" don't come into it, you may as well speculate on how Santa can deliver so many presents around the world in one night. :D So far all the reliable, replicable evidence points to a very big "NO" no to the three questions I asked. Homeopathy has had over 200 years to prove itself, it has constantly failed, how much longer should we bother testing it for before we finally declare that there is nothing to find? Oh and I can honestly say that so far real medicine has learned NOTING from homeopathy, cos homeopathy has nothing useful to teach! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 142] Author : John Jackson Date : 25th December 2005 06:30 PM Wouldn't you be tempted to get ahold of a quack clinic and see if they had, let's say, some famous clients, who you could personally contact, at least? 1) Can you not see the obvious fallacy there? 2) Can you not see the obvious bias inherent in that approach? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 143] Author : bruto Date : 25th December 2005 07:30 PM Bruto - You raise a good point. I suppose it's feasible that even the person sent home as being cured, for example, really may not be cured, but just thinks they are. So if I called or wrote that person, I would not really know what the truth is. Hmmmm. I guess I would have to tell the clinic that I have skeptical concerns and I'd have to see how they could show me that all these people are being cured better than the conventional way, and just see what kind of an answer I get. Maybe a legitimate place would say that some independent testing facility verifies some of their most remarkable cases, or something. You hear an awful lot from the homeopathy field that the reason for going for their approach is so that they can bolster your immune system to help fight the cancer. (As opposed to chemo and radiation that is supposed to destroy it, albeit supposedly they too give you stuff to help your immune system...at least now...but it wasn't always this way, I don't think...so maybe they got this out of the book on homeopathy?) I guess one would have to research if that(immune system building) really does any good or not. It's not just the question of whether someone has actually been cured, or just enjoys a long remission. It's also the question of whether the supposed remissions from quack cures can be attributed to the quack cures, and whether the percentage of these is in any way better than that achieved with placebo or no treatment at all. I think if you went to one of those clinics and voiced your skeptical concerns, you'd probably get the kind of nonsense we read about constantly from homeopathists and other quacks, dodging the issue and speaking mumbo-jumbo. Of course I might be wrong about that. Asking is free. Researching whether immune system building does any good would be one step, but another, and I should think, just as critical, step, would be to research whether homeopathy, to pick an obvious example, actually acts on the immune system. I could, for example, suggest the relatively plausible sounding theory that improving the quality of your gasoline would improve performance of your car, but you'd be a fool if, believing that, you bought my magical elixir which consists of water that has had a jug of gasoline placed next to it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 144] Author : Ducky Date : 26th December 2005 12:13 AM Hi Fowlsound, I have posted a link to your story at "Confessions of a Quackbuster". Regards, Paul Lee, PT Hey thanks! What's the link? (ETA: Nevermind, I found it in your listed homepage. Thanks again!) Welcome to the forum. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 145] Author : Ducky Date : 26th December 2005 12:18 AM Well, the paper is certainly a personal one! I for one prefer to keep my writing at a more impersonal level. However, I'm not sure which approach makes more of an impact. It may depend on your target audience. The arguments you make are sound, and the examples drawn from your own experience are powerful. But phrases such as "Are you really such a half-wit, mouth breathing moron as to believe that BS?" could well cause some of your audience to stop reading right there. You also tripped over "its" vs "it's" on page 6. (Sorry, it's the grammar panda bear in me.) On a side note, I believe Big Pharma are not so much interested in "keeping us sick" as they are interested in finding new and inventive ways to make us believe we are sick so as to sell us more medication. Very often it seems new drugs are an answer in search of a question rather than the other way around. It was never intended to be anything but a personal account. I'll have to fix those grammar mistakes, thanks for pointing them out. If some off the audience stops reading because of strong language, that's not my concern. I put down my thoughts, they are to be taken as they are. If I worried about what everyone else wanted in content, I would end up with a rather stale and impersonal personal account. if sCAM can use personal accounts, so can the rational people. The difference is there is evidence supporting rational arguments, and sCAM has no supporting evidence. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 146] Author : love Date : 27th December 2005 04:52 PM Whoa. Wait a loooooong second. Even if I had unlimited resources of time and money, there's no way in hell I'd ever go with a homeopathic regimen. For one thing, why would you waste any resource, regardless of its supply? Curiosity. And the belief that if you try things out, you might learn something, or experience something new and fun. When I started investigating homeopathy, I tested my worldview against reality. I thought that there were not any double-blind trials that showed homeopathy to be effective. How could there be? What I found was that there were such trials. It was evident my worldview was in error. There was evidence in support of homeopathy working. I began to trust expert opinions less and less. Especially when they say things like: "There is no evidence that homeopathy works". I realised they were back-constructing reality from their beliefs, rather than actually knowing that there was no evidence. Just like I had done. I guess after that I became more and more "woo" as I read, researched and experienced more. I feel my belief system to be a lot more coherent and consistent than it was before, although it has radically changed. The conspiracy theories made me a bit paranoid for a while, but I have a more positive perspective on them now. I am certainly a lot more relaxed. Looking back on the past two years, I have experienced incredible things. I have swum with dolphins, cured phobias and traumas, stood in front of an oncoming train, been "possessed" by a ghost on a ghost hunt, met my "soul-mate", and trained with many people who I would have only otherwise seen on TV. Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it. Of course, I could have found out that all homeopaths talk nonsense and had a hilarious time laughing at their explanations as to why nothing was happenning. I did not have a large investment in the outcome. It was the act of doing something for fun that made it work for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 147] Author : Ducky Date : 27th December 2005 04:57 PM Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it. Of course, I could have found out that all homeopaths talk nonsense and had a hilarious time laughing at their explanations as to why nothing was happenning. I did not have a large investment in the outcome. So you weren't actually investigating anything scientifically, you were mucking about. The fact that you weren't actually sick allows you to dabble in unproven methods and confirm your own bias. Great. That has absolutely no medical value whatsoever, and furthermore is a nice example why those who do not persue scientific study of medical treatments should stay the heck away from the sick. Call me when you have a peer reviewed paper based on double blind study. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 148] Author : Spidey13 Date : 27th December 2005 05:31 PM Curiosity. And the belief that if you try things out, you might learn something, or experience something new and fun. Yes, fun should be your top priority for trying to beat cancer. :rolleyes: When I started investigating homeopathy, I tested my worldview against reality. I thought that there were not any double-blind trials that showed homeopathy to be effective. How could there be? What I found was that there were such trials. It was evident my worldview was in error. There was evidence in support of homeopathy working. Source? I have...stood in front of an oncoming train... Why did you move? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 149] Author : Jeff Wagg Date : 27th December 2005 06:29 PM I feel my belief system to be a lot more coherent and consistent than it was before, although it has radically changed. Yes, that's what happens when you stop thinking...everything starts to make sense. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 150] Author : Ducky Date : 27th December 2005 07:08 PM Yes, that's what happens when you stop thinking...everything starts to make sense. I wish Jeff would post more often. He rocks me with his wit and wisdom. (ETA: that was not sarcasm.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 151] Author : John Jackson Date : 27th December 2005 08:31 PM Looking back on the past two years, I have experienced incredible things. I have swum with dolphins, cured phobias and traumas, stood in front of an oncoming train, been "possessed" by a ghost on a ghost hunt, met my "soul-mate", and trained with many people who I would have only otherwise seen on TV. Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it. That answers every question that I could have asked. Thanks again for contrasting reality so well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 152] Author : Roadtoad Date : 27th December 2005 08:37 PM Curiosity. And the belief that if you try things out, you might learn something, or experience something new and fun. If I want to learn something new and fun, I go to the library and check out books. I buy books. I ask friends about books they've read. And when I read them, I try to apply critical thinking to what I'm reading. I don't go around engaging in pseudoscience and putting the lives of innocent people at risk. When I started investigating homeopathy, I tested my worldview against reality. I thought that there were not any double-blind trials that showed homeopathy to be effective. How could there be? Hmmm. Could it be that homeopathy was a crock of sh**, and people who used it to treat serious medical conditions wound up assuming room temperature? What I found was that there were such trials. It was evident my worldview was in error. There was evidence in support of homeopathy working. Considering what we've been reading in a number of threads, particularly those from Rolfe on Homeopathy, who, by the way, is well versed in SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY, I find it hard to believe that there's any evidence of homeopathy working at all, unless you're into self-delusion and masochism. I began to trust expert opinions less and less. Especially when they say things like: "There is no evidence that homeopathy works". I realised they were back-constructing reality from their beliefs, rather than actually knowing that there was no evidence. Just like I had done. Yeah, that's the stuff! When the experts who have tested it, tried it in double-blind trials, published their findings for peer review, put their reputations on the line, and in some cases, the lives of their patients, and discovered that it's BS... Hey, why listen to scientists, who are just no fun, and devoted to being killjoys, insisting that people actually wind up healthy and healed from what afflicts them, rather than just getting a warm fuzzy. I guess after that I became more and more "woo" as I read, researched and experienced more. Oh, you think? I feel my belief system to be a lot more coherent and consistent than it was before, although it has radically changed. The conspiracy theories made me a bit paranoid for a while, but I have a more positive perspective on them now. I am certainly a lot more relaxed. Coherent? How? You've yet to make a coherent post, and while you may be calm, I find you to be incredibly cruel and selfish. Looking back on the past two years, I have experienced incredible things. I have swum with dolphins, cured phobias and traumas, stood in front of an oncoming train, been "possessed" by a ghost on a ghost hunt, met my "soul-mate", and trained with many people who I would have only otherwise seen on TV. Yes, I'm about as "woo" as they come, and I enjoy it. Fine. Glad you're happy. But don't spew this intellectual slop around here and not expect it to be challenged, and challenged hard. For one thing, just how in the hell did you know you were possessed by a ghost? People delude themselves in the realm of the paranormal all the time. I can point out to you more than a few myths surrounding a couple of California's "haunted highways," and show you using the FACTS that the whole thing is nothing more than self-delusion. You buy into that filth because you don't want to be bothered with actually using your brain. Of course, I could have found out that all homeopaths talk nonsense and had a hilarious time laughing at their explanations as to why nothing was happenning. I did not have a large investment in the outcome. Fowlsound has a huge investment in the outcome. If he invests in the outcome of homeopathy, he runs the very real risk of DYING. Frankly, I have no time for intellectual and medical dilletantes. It was the act of doing something for fun that made it work for me. As you said, you had nothing at stake. You wanted to try something new. You really had nothing to lose. Sorry, but there are far too many people who have too much at stake to engage in the sort of intellectual dishonesty and cruelty you're advocating. If it were truly your life on the line, if it were you with cancer, would you trust a medical professional, whose training and experience had prepared that individual to examine the facts surrounding your condition, or someone who was offering you tap water with it's memory tweaked? If you choose the latter, you're an idiot, and a fool. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 153] Author : Roadtoad Date : 27th December 2005 08:42 PM That answers every question that I could have asked. Thanks again for contrasting reality so well. You're far more polite than I am, John. I'm sorry, but Love is an idiot. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 154] Author : AnotherSillyAlias Date : 28th December 2005 01:25 AM I'm sorry, but Love is an idiot. On the face of it that seems likely but I wonder if there isn't a hefty degree of chain yanking going on here .... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 155] Author : Mojo Date : 28th December 2005 05:38 AM Call me when you have a peer reviewed paper based on double blind study.Well, actually there are such papers, but they tend not to be of very good quality. There are more and better studies showing it doesn't work, hence the conclusion of the meta-analysis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16125589) published in the Lancet earlier this year, for example. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 156] Author : Ducky Date : 28th December 2005 03:38 PM Well, actually there are such papers, but they tend not to be of very good quality. There are more and better studies showing it doesn't work, hence the conclusion of the meta-analysis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16125589) published in the Lancet earlier this year, for example. Right. In that case, I shall reword my statement as follows: "Call me when you actually have a viable cancer treatment." (Thanks Mojo :) ) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 157] Author : Mojo Date : 28th December 2005 05:52 PM It's another of their self-contradictions, of course. They shout loudly about any DBPC trials that appear to support homoeopathy, but dismiss any that don't by claiming that DBPC trials are not appropriate to homoeopathy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 158] Author : Mojo Date : 28th December 2005 06:06 PM For example, note the final couple of sentences from this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4183916.stm) news story about the Lancet paper: A spokeswoman from the Society of Homeopaths said: "Many previous studies have demonstrated that homeopathy has an effect over and above placebo. "It has been established beyond doubt and accepted by many researchers, that the placebo-controlled randomised controlled trial is not a fitting research tool with which to test homeopathy." And then look at this document from the Society of Homeopaths' website titled An Overview of Positive Homeopathy Research and Surveys (http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/whats-new/documents/Positivehomeopathy.PDF). Note the DBPC trials listed on pages 5, 7, 8 and 9. Edited because I forgot to include the links. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 159] Author : fyslee Date : 28th December 2005 11:19 PM Hey thanks! What's the link? (ETA: Nevermind, I found it in your listed homepage. Thanks again!) Welcome to the forum. :) Thanks for the welcome. I am not yet allowed to post links. It's that stupid rule about 15 link-free entries......:boggled: I can understand the logic in it (to prevent linkspam), but 15 is a lot of chit chat, and for me it's like working with one hand tied behind my back: "Welcome as our new salesman in the Electrical Appliances department. We hope you can sell a lot of these devices to people, but you won't be allowed to turn on the electricity or demonstrate them until you've sold 15 of them." I've never seen such a rule on any list before. Maybe they should change it to five link-free entries and trust people a bit more. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 160] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 28th December 2005 11:34 PM Thanks for the welcome. I am not yet allowed to post links. It's that stupid rule about 15 link-free entries......:boggled: I can understand the logic in it (to prevent linkspam), but 15 is a lot of chit chat, and for me it's like working with one hand tied behind my back: "Welcome as our new salesman in the Electrical Appliances department. We hope you can sell a lot of these devices to people, but you won't be allowed to turn on the electricity or demonstrate them until you've sold 15 of them." I've never seen such a rule on any list before. Maybe they should change it to five link-free entries and trust people a bit more. They should certainly be able to trust you, having done so much for the cause of skepticism but I guess they need to try to control other posters and so you get screened when it is not necessary -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 161] Author : Anders W. Bonde Date : 29th December 2005 09:23 AM Hi Paul, Welcome aboard! (Here's a chance to add a post in order to reach the 'magic 15'): -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 162] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:35 AM Yes, that's the way things work. Boards like this use software that can't distinguish between people. It would also be an awful lot of work for the moderators to screen people individually, considering how many people are members here. Well, at least this will be my ninth mail :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 163] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:40 AM Hi Paul, Welcome aboard! (Here's a chance to add a post in order to reach the 'magic 15'): Hej Anders! Rart at møde dig her. Jeg har lige afsluttet min sidste patientbehandling for 2005 og kan nu slappe lidt af her i Sorø. **** Just a little greeting for another Dane her. I'm American, but live in Denmark with my Danish wife. Now this will be my tenth post. Getting closer to the goal! Soon I'll be able to "use both hands"! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 164] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:41 AM ..... and my 11th.... :p -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 165] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:43 AM .... and 12th....:D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 166] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:44 AM ... and 13th....;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 167] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:45 AM ... and 14th....;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 168] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:47 AM ... and 15th.... :D :D :D Maybe now I can create my profile, choose an avatar, start using links, etc. Whew! Nice to be alive again. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 169] Author : Glite Date : 29th December 2005 09:47 AM I'm not going to chime in with my opinions of the "woo", others have already done a splendid job. i will say to FS, i wish you all the best in your treatment and recovery. you seem to have a handle on whats happening to you and you've got the smarts to make the right decisions. as for the physiological "good feeling" that keeps you perky, i hope that the support from here helps. if i ever get myself to a TAM, I'll see ya there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 170] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:51 AM Hmm....still can't create much of a profile or choose an avatar. Maybe the system takes time to approve me? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 171] Author : fyslee Date : 29th December 2005 09:55 AM For more about the acronym sCAM (ALWAYS spelled with a small "s"....;-), do this search: "The Quack-Files" "scam commitment" Here's what I've written on sCAM at SkepticWiki: http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/SCAM ... and my user page there: http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/User:Fyslee -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 172] Author : Powa Date : 29th December 2005 10:33 AM fyslee, if you want to boost your post count, this (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12746&page=364) is the thread for you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 173] Author : Asolepius Date : 29th December 2005 02:07 PM Are you for real? Do you want to gamble your life on the placebo effect? It is not 100%. It's more like 20% (or somewhere around there. med folks, help me out with that #?) There is no PLACEBO that cures CANCER. Well, I wouldn't gamble on even 20% for a life-threatening condition. The much-hyped placebo effect is mainly observed in benign conditions, especially pain. Anything where expectation plays a part. FS, I found your OP deeply moving, but you are not going to move the minds of unreason, as exemplified repeatedly by the likes of `love'. You are doing all the right things, and you deserve to succeed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 174] Author : Ducky Date : 29th December 2005 02:09 PM Well, I wouldn't gamble on even 20% for a life-threatening condition. The much-hyped placebo effect is mainly observed in benign conditions, especially pain. Anything where expectation plays a part. FS, I found your OP deeply moving, but you are not going to move the minds of unreason, as exemplified repeatedly by the likes of `love'. You are doing all the right things, and you deserve to succeed. I agree 100% with everything you said. Actually, I was hoping the paper wouldn't necessarily convert or change them, just get them to leave me the hell alone. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 175] Author : Asolepius Date : 29th December 2005 02:20 PM I didn't say I would I said I might. Hard to say what I might do if I had a potentially terminal illness. I can’t confidently state that I wouldn’t. The imaginative exercises might work in some sense – nobody can really say that developing a positive attitude etc cannot have any effect on one’s immune system or merely one’s ability to cope or something else not thought of just yet. Re: Homeopathy – this is probably the least likely thing I’d dtry but might be worth trying re: the placebo effect. It does appear to be quite a good placebo. Given that terminal illness is your last shot I cannot rule out the possibility that I'd take the view that anything is worth trying as long as it doesn’t do any harm. No no no no NO!!!!!! Sorry, but sometimes I have to shout. Positive mental attitude has been tested and does not work in cancer. It may make people fell better about it, but they don't live any longer. Look at the guidance from NICE on palliative care. And NO again - nobody is going to to do better than by focussing totally on what will do them some good. Any distraction does harm. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 176] Author : Eos of the Eons Date : 30th December 2005 01:18 PM Placebo effect. Tell someone they are gonna die. They believe you. So they get soooo scared that they curl up in a ball, and stop eating and drinking. They await their doom. What do they die of? Fear? No. Dehydration at their own hand. Quite often placebo effects work because people believe the placebo is doing something. They unwittingly relax and stop focussing on the perceived problem (the reduced stress leads to pain relief or whatever). Or they stop worrying about it and the temporary problem clears up (swelling in joints due to temporary allergic reaction disappears). Placebo effect can be good and bad as well (as written above). Why won't it work on cancer? Or a broken leg? Or any real problem? Because it takes more than distraction or belief to fix it. A real physical prolonged problem needs real intervention. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 177] Author : HeyLeroy Date : 30th December 2005 03:22 PM Fowlsound, I admire you for your strength, courage, and kick-ass attitude. You know that everyone here is in your corner pulling for you. I can't make it to TAM this year, but I expect to see you there next year, and the first round is on me. Cheers. Larry -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 178] Author : Jekyll Date : 30th December 2005 05:33 PM Damn. Fowlsound for the next messiah! I don't know what to say, I am deeply moved by your bravery, your willingness to share and your patience in putting up with Love. I don't know how you've been able to answer her. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 179] Author : Kiless Date : 30th December 2005 06:41 PM Threads 179 to 191 have been moved to Abandon All Hope as it was deemed to be moving into a flamewar again. Please continue the derail in the appropriate thread here (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1350906)and any future similar posts. Please note, the ignore feature is available. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 180] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 30th December 2005 06:55 PM You lost a post of mine in the process -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 181] Author : Simon Bridge Date : 1st January 2006 10:34 PM Family members had cancer over the last few years. each did the chemo/radio thing, and each beat it. In one case the detection was very late and surgury was required. (Now, in NZ surgury for removing cancer is on the public purse: no cost. Same with the reconstruction later.) However - one just did the old "I trust science" bit - recovery went very well and there were almost no side effects from the chemo. The other didn't quite trust the doctors. Did the standard treatment anyway, but also did a number of self-nurchuring things too - took a homeopathic thing (I checked that it didn't actually do damage) and went to regular prayer meetings. This helped her to cope with the attitude. Her recovery was tougher, and she may have given up if deprived of the props. However - when I went to replenish the homeopathy stuff, I replaced it with fennel and sugar. It was cheaper, and had the same effect. (i.e. none - beyond the feeling of doing something oneself.) This sort of thing was encouraged - on the understanding that it did not interfere with the hospital treatment. Our attitude to our illness (a phrase that can still ern you a violent episode because of it's misuse) is important to our recovery. However, it won't make you better. It won't fix something broke. Not all placebos are created equal - if each is as good as another, and they make you feel better, then pick the cheap one. Oh - hoping an illness will just go away (imagining etc) will not work, but the illness can still go away all by itself. It is in the nature of diseases that they will sometimes just burn out, sometimes go into remission. Another misleading effect is that doctors are usually pessimistic in their prognosis where potentially fatal diseases are concerned. If they say you'll have 6 months to live and you hang on for 12, that's good. If they say you'll live 12 months but you only made 11.5, that may be grounds for a lawsuit... In general, it is true if it stays true even when you stop believing in it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 182] Author : Kiless Date : 1st January 2006 10:35 PM You lost a post of mine in the process I am PMing you in regards to this, see what we can do. As the sequence stands in 'Abandon', it appears that there is no lost post? Edited to add - no lost post confirmed. :) Please, if any moves in future result in lost posts or suspected lost posts for anyone at all, please indicate in the Forum management area? That way we can address it quicker, as I didn't see this for some time. Thanks. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 183] Author : Dogdoctor Date : 2nd January 2006 02:20 PM Kiless, Thank you very much for pointing out that my post was not where I thought it was. I sooo apologize for making you do unneeded work.:blush: :footinmou I am still slapping myself upside the head for doing that. Thanks for all your efforts :th: :lfault not really but everyone else blames her -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 184] Author : Kiless Date : 2nd January 2006 09:15 PM Kiless, Thank you very much for pointing out that my post was not where I thought it was. Eh, don't be daft. :) It's okay. I can't even remember researching American football last night.... :eye-poppi -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 185] Author : Kiless Date : 2nd January 2006 09:17 PM Is it available on another site yet? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 186] Author : Belz... Date : 6th January 2006 10:35 AM After I wrote this, I found out the cancer has spread to my arm. I will be talking with an oncologist on 3 January, 2006. We'll discuss treatment options then. In the meantime, it seems I have an excuse to miss TAM. Kick its a$$, man. (the cancer, not the oncologist.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 187] Author : Rolfe Date : 6th January 2006 11:02 AM Well, yes, but be careful. Unlike what the woos claim, it's not possible to "defeat" a cancer just by wanting to or by having a positive attitude. What you mean is of course "take every rational treatment offered to you by the specialists in charge of your case", but be careful of sounding as if this is a "self-empowerment" plan. Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 188] Author : Bronze Dog Date : 7th January 2006 06:04 PM Sorry I haven't been around, fowlsound. Hopefully, you won't be needing your titanium superpowers. I'll be digging my fingers into my temples, trying to access any latent psychic powers I might happen to have. But until they show up, stick with your doctors' and nurses' sexy, wrinkly brains, because I'm just trying to be humorously insane. Keep your spirits up... that is, if the doc'll let you have alcohol. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 189] Author : SquishyDave Date : 9th January 2006 08:45 PM I chucked your excellent paper up on my webpage too. It has low bandwidth, so don't go telling millions of people, but if someone comes across it, they may just start to think. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 190] Author : Ducky Date : 9th January 2006 08:47 PM I chucked your excellent paper up on my webpage too. It has low bandwidth, so don't go telling millions of people, but if someone comes across it, they may just start to think. Hey thanks Dave! I also have a blog about my experiences. I'm working to put up all I can about my journey through cancer. www.fowlsound.com/blog :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 191] Author : GrnMtSkeptic Date : 12th January 2006 08:49 AM But for one to sort thru what is quackery and what isn't, is the $64,000 question.... or eat weiners with nirtrates/nitrites in them Sorry for coming late to the party, but this is one of my peeves. Yes, nitrates/nitrites are added to cured meats, so they get listed on the package. But what about all the foods that include nitrates/nitrites naturally so they don't have them listed on the labels (most don't even have labels). Yes, I am talking about vegetables... Estimates are that 80-90% of nitrate/nitrite intake comes vegetables and that most vegetarians have a nitrate/nitrite intake 3 to 4 times that of non-vegetarians... Maybe Googling Mexican homeopathic clinics will yield some good reading. Try googling nitrates vegetarians... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 192] Author : Metullus Date : 12th January 2006 01:34 PM Hey FS, I downloaded your paper and, you will be surprised to hear, I even read it. Spelling problems aside it is a good read. Even, I think, useful. You can guess, I am certain, what my reaction was. It did occur to me that placebo might be useful if you where to take about 5 pounds of them, put them in a sock, and swing the sock with abandon. Might clear out the room if nothing else. You da chicken, dude! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 193] Author : Deetee Date : 20th January 2006 06:16 AM FS - you have a rival who presumably would regard your titanium superpowers as some form of inferior energy source - Dr Quantum (http://www.toolsforwellness.com/51049.html)! (and all for only $69.95!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 194] Author : Genesius Date : 20th January 2006 12:30 PM The "New Alchemy:" the nine steps for transforming your thoughts into matter Wow! Become a Q for only $69.95! Where's my credit card? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 195] Author : Ducky Date : 20th January 2006 01:48 PM FS - you have a rival who presumably would regard your titanium superpowers as some form of inferior energy source - Dr Quantum (http://www.toolsforwellness.com/51049.html)! (and all for only $69.95!) Oh boy. Perhaps I could introduce that guy to the quantum mechanics of my spine of woo doom. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 196] Author : Metullus Date : 22nd January 2006 02:15 PM Hi fowlsound, I'm pretty new here and just now got around to reading this thread and your paper. Just wanted to say that fowlsound, I think YOU f***ing rock. I'm rootin for ya. Meg Puleeze! Yu'll just encourage him! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 197] Author : Roadtoad Date : 22nd January 2006 03:35 PM Hi fowlsound, I'm pretty new here and just now got around to reading this thread and your paper. Just wanted to say that fowlsound, I think YOU f***ing rock. I'm rootin for ya. Meg Puleeze! Yu'll just encourage him! I hope she does. Because he does. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 198] Author : Ducky Date : 23rd January 2006 03:20 PM Hi fowlsound, I'm pretty new here and just now got around to reading this thread and your paper. Just wanted to say that fowlsound, I think YOU f***ing rock. I'm rootin for ya. Meg Awww shucks...:blush: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 199] Author : Mashuna Date : 6th February 2006 05:10 AM I'd just like to add my best wishes to those already given by others on the form, Fowlsound. Your account shows bravery and courage, and I applaud you for remaining firm in your acceptance of the scientific method. I am reminded of the John Diamond books, detailing his experiences of cancer, and the similar attitude he took to those offering the 'why wouldn't you try this, what have you got to lose?' attitude. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 200] Author : Ducky Date : 6th February 2006 07:47 PM I'd just like to add my best wishes to those already given by others on the form, Fowlsound. Your account shows bravery and courage, and I applaud you for remaining firm in your acceptance of the scientific method. I am reminded of the John Diamond books, detailing his experiences of cancer, and the similar attitude he took to those offering the 'why wouldn't you try this, what have you got to lose?' attitude. Thank you very much. I am always humbly thankful for best wishes :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 201] Author : Foodbunny Date : 6th February 2006 11:23 PM I just saw this tonight, and I'm giving you my well-wishes too fowlsound. I have another 6 months before they scan me and see if I need another big dose of radiation. I met my endocrinologist after my thyroidectomy. I was in moderate pain and beginning to exhibit some signs of hypothyroidism. I was also pretty frightened, but my excellent surgeon recommended him and my research had backed up that recomendation. He explained everything about how the thyroid functions in the body, even drawing diagrams, and what my body would do now that it didn't have one. He explained the survival rates for my type of cancer and the various therapies that are used for it, and why they are used. Then he paused for a moment and started into his "Now, people will tell you about all sorts of 'alternative therapies..'" I stopped him right there and told him that I believe in the scientific method. That I had already researched the different therapies for thyroid cancer. And that if anyone tried to sell me snake oil I'd give them hell. He smiled. We've had a great doctor-patient relationship ever since. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 202] Author : Ducky Date : 6th February 2006 11:30 PM I just saw this tonight, and I'm giving you my well-wishes too fowlsound. I have another 6 months before they scan me and see if I need another big dose of radiation. I met my endocrinologist after my thyroidectomy. I was in moderate pain and beginning to exhibit some signs of hypothyroidism. I was also pretty frightened, but my excellent surgeon recommended him and my research had backed up that recomendation. He explained everything about how the thyroid functions in the body, even drawing diagrams, and what my body would do now that it didn't have one. He explained the survival rates for my type of cancer and the various therapies that are used for it, and why they are used. Then he paused for a moment and started into his "Now, people will tell you about all sorts of 'alternative therapies..'" I stopped him right there and told him that I believe in the scientific method. That I had already researched the different therapies for thyroid cancer. And that if anyone tried to sell me snake oil I'd give them hell. He smiled. We've had a great doctor-patient relationship ever since. Man I hate the waiting, don't you? I am currently waiting on another set of scans and MRI/CT and bone marrow biopsy coming up in march. It's the waiting that sucks! I wish you the best and please PM me your progress. Hell, give a copy of my paper to your doc. You two could have a giggle at the mental sight of me punching a rieki practitioner. Stay strong. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 203] Author : Almo Date : 7th February 2006 08:51 AM I was wondering what fowlsound's avatar was... :jaw-dropp I had a calcified bone chip removed from my knee back in 1996. When I woke up from the surgery, they told me it was a tumor! :eek: For 24 hours, I didn't know whether it was malignant or not. Proximity to your own mortality does things to you. People who spout "alternative medicine," and have not yet come this close to their mortality need to shut up. People who spout "alternative medicine," and have come this close to their mortality are just lucky. Individuals experiencing the randomness of chance form odd superstitions. I'll trust peer-reviewed, reproducable science any day. One more thing: :soapbox How the hell could any "alternative medicine" replace that missing vertebra?!? Huh? How? Come on, we're all waiting for it. How. Edit: Some typos. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 204] Author : Ducky Date : 10th February 2006 06:44 AM I was wondering what fowlsound's avatar was... :jaw-dropp I had a calcified bone chip removed from my knee back in 1996. When I woke up from the surgery, they told me it was a tumor! :eek: For 24 hours, I didn't know whether it was malignant or not. Proximity to your own mortality does things to you. People who spout "alternative medicine," and have not yet come this close to their mortality need to shut up. People who spout "alternative medicine," and have come this close to their mortality are just lucky. Individuals experiencing the randomness of chance form odd superstitions. I'll trust peer-reviewed, reproducable science any day. One more thing: :soapbox How the hell could any "alternative medicine" replace that missing vertebra?!? Huh? How? Come on, we're all waiting for it. How. Edit: Some typos. yeah, what no one really tells you is "tumor" = anything that grows that shouldn't. Sometimes bad, sometimes not so bad, sometimes deaadly. I'm with you, man. SCience over woo anyday. I'm still waiting for a chiro or homeopath to tell me how they would have fixed it. Of course they all would say that I should have been doing their treatments all aqlong, and that would have prevented this whole mess in teh first place. Whatever. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 205] Author : Rolfe Date : 10th February 2006 07:50 AM Sadly, someone I've worked with for 18 years has just been diagnosed with an extremely nasty brain tumour. Glioblastoma multiforme. To be honest, I think she'll be lucky to see another Christmas. The treatment on offer is only palliative, and should extend her life somewhat, but there isn't a cure. What really upset me, when I Googled it to double-check the depressing statistics, was that while the real Google search links were all proper, kosher medical information, the search also turned up a load of "sponsored links" which were offering "the cure your doctor won't tell you about" and stuff like that. Now my friend isn't that stupid (and she has resolved not to look it up anyway so as not to get depressed), but can you imagine the cruelty of the false hope these links offer to people who don't understand the health fraud business? It's disgusting. Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 206] Author : Ducky Date : 10th February 2006 03:57 PM Sadly, someone I've worked with for 18 years has just been diagnosed with an extremely nasty brain tumour. Glioblastoma multiforme. To be honest, I think she'll be lucky to see another Christmas. The treatment on offer is only palliative, and should extend her life somewhat, but there isn't a cure. What really upset me, when I Googled it to double-check the depressing statistics, was that while the real Google search links were all proper, kosher medical information, the search also turned up a load of "sponsored links" which were offering "the cure your doctor won't tell you about" and stuff like that. Now my friend isn't that stupid (and she has resolved not to look it up anyway so as not to get depressed), but can you imagine the cruelty of the false hope these links offer to people who don't understand the health fraud business? It's disgusting. Rolfe. I agree 100%, and my sincerest condolences. I hope your friend is the exception to the statistics and makes a miraculous recovery. My thoughts are with you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 207] Author : Roadtoad Date : 10th February 2006 07:54 PM Rolfe, I am so sorry. I don't know what to do, but my thoughts are with you and your friend. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 208] Author : jj Date : 10th February 2006 10:54 PM Sadly, someone I've worked with for 18 years has just been diagnosed with an extremely nasty brain tumour. Glioblastoma multiforme. To be honest, I think she'll be lucky to see another Christmas. The treatment on offer is only palliative, and should extend her life somewhat, but there isn't a cure. What really upset me, when I Googled it to double-check the depressing statistics, was that while the real Google search links were all proper, kosher medical information, the search also turned up a load of "sponsored links" which were offering "the cure your doctor won't tell you about" and stuff like that. Now my friend isn't that stupid (and she has resolved not to look it up anyway so as not to get depressed), but can you imagine the cruelty of the false hope these links offer to people who don't understand the health fraud business? It's disgusting. Rolfe. Ow, ow, ow, that's nasty! You have my sympathy. I doubt if my "prayer" would be very efficacious. I hope at least any pallative care makes the person comfortable, and that they're happy until the end. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 209] Author : Angus McPresley Date : 11th February 2006 04:33 PM What really upset me, when I Googled it to double-check the depressing statistics, was that while the real Google search links were all proper, kosher medical information, the search also turned up a load of "sponsored links" which were offering "the cure your doctor won't tell you about" and stuff like that. He's right -- check it out (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Glioblastoma+multiforme&btnG=Google+Search&meta=). The top two (when I did the search) contained legitimate information, but the last was for some bullsh*t herb --"Effective Chinese medicine directly from China". No studies were mentioned, surprise surprise. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 210] Author : sionep Date : 12th February 2006 09:12 PM Sweet. Post the link to your site. I'd be interested to see it. ETA: Nevermind. My moronic self remembered to check your profile. Next I will learn to tie my shoes... Very good story. I believe that modern medicine, will prolong your life. I have just posted a message with the PDF link to the mailing list for 'quackwatch'. healthfraud@lists.quackwatch.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 211] Author : Asolepius Date : 14th February 2006 04:58 AM I just found this very good resource (http://www.eortc.be/Services/Doc/CamCancer.htm), from the European Organisation for Research into Treatment of Cancer (EORTC). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 212] Author : Deetee Date : 14th February 2006 10:55 AM Sadly, someone I've worked with for 18 years has just been diagnosed with an extremely nasty brain tumour. Glioblastoma multiforme. To be honest, I think she'll be lucky to see another Christmas. The treatment on offer is only palliative, and should extend her life somewhat, but there isn't a cure. What really upset me, when I Googled it to double-check the depressing statistics, was that while the real Google search links were all proper, kosher medical information, the search also turned up a load of "sponsored links" which were offering "the cure your doctor won't tell you about" and stuff like that. Now my friend isn't that stupid (and she has resolved not to look it up anyway so as not to get depressed), but can you imagine the cruelty of the false hope these links offer to people who don't understand the health fraud business? It's disgusting. Over on open2.net forums on this thread (http://www.open2.net/forum/thread.jspa?threadID=3974&tstart=0) I had a little run in with Jill Pay (http://www.embodyforyou.com/EB/?k=173212), self proclaimed homeopath and Reiki "master", and member of Acorn to Oak (http://www.acorntooak.org.uk/reiki/). As a straw man argument she raised the Glasgow girl who had a mistaken radiotherapy overdose for her brain tumour as an example of bad orthodox medicine, which as we all know just treats "symptoms". I suggested that tragic as it was that she got an overdose, at least the radiotherapy had cured the tumour, and what would she have preferred - Reiki or radiotherapy? Her response was Firstly I would say that I see the tumour as a symptom - not a cause of symptoms. Treating the tumour "effectively" with radio- or chemotherapy does not treat the underlying cause of the cancer. Go figure. ETA - I have just been reviewing the "code of practice (http://www.embodyforyou.com/CodeOfPractice/)" under which these practitioners function. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 8. Members must never claim to 'cure'. The possible therapeutic benefits may be described; 'recovery' must never be guaranteed.Is this an admission they can't cure people? 15. Members must not advise a particular course of medical treatment, such as to undergo an operation or to take specific drugs. 16. Members must never give a medical diagnosis to a client in any circumstances, unless medically qualified to do so; this is the responsibility of a registered medical practitioner. However, many members have a 'gift' of diagnosis and of discovering dysfunctions in the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual aspects. In this case the member may make mention of any disorder which he may discover, and advise the client to see her/his doctor for a medical diagnosis and record this action on the client’s records. 17. Members must not use titles or descriptions to give the impression of medical or other qualifications unless they possess them and must make it clear to their clients that they are not medical doctors and do not purport to have their knowledge or skills. 18. Members are forbidden to diagnose, perform tests on or treat animals in any way, unless specifically qualified, or give advice following diagnosis by a registered veterinary surgeon or to countermand her/his instructions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 213] Author : Badly Shaved Monkey Date : 14th February 2006 03:41 PM Over on open2.net forums on this thread (http://www.open2.net/forum/thread.jspa?threadID=3974&tstart=0) I had a little run in with Jill Pay (http://www.embodyforyou.com/EB/?k=173212), self proclaimed homeopath and Reiki "master", and member of Acorn to Oak (http://www.acorntooak.org.uk/reiki/). As a straw man argument she raised the Glasgow girl who had a mistaken radiotherapy overdose for her brain tumour as an example of bad orthodox medicine, which as we all know just treats "symptoms". I suggested that tragic as it was that she got an overdose, at least the radiotherapy had cured the tumour, and what would she have preferred - Reiki or radiotherapy? Her response was Go figure. ETA - I have just been reviewing the "code of practice (http://www.embodyforyou.com/CodeOfPractice/)" under which these practitioners function. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Is this an admission they can't cure people? Jill Pay: "Don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about just because you disagree with my viewpoint - that is insulting to my intelligence" No, dear, it's because you are talking crap that we choose to insult your intelligence. From within that thread, they are saying that the radiation dose 1.5 times the correct amount. Is that really biologically significant? Most biological dose-response curves are logarithmic so a 50% overdose is actually quite marginal. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 214] Author : Jon. Date : 14th February 2006 06:12 PM Her response was Firstly I would say that I see the tumour as a symptom - not a cause of symptoms. Treating the tumour "effectively" with radio- or chemotherapy does not treat the underlying cause of the cancer. Go figure. I can't believe you didn't go after her on that one. I mean, if she could identify, let alone treat, the "underlying cause of cancer", she could get very rich and win at least one Nobel Prize. I mean, the tumour is the cancer, so getting rid of it gets rid of the cancer - assuming it hasn't metastasized. Or is my understanding of medicine wrong? Edited to correct clumsy quoting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 215] Author : Deetee Date : 15th February 2006 02:28 AM From within that thread, they are saying that the radiation dose 1.5 times the correct amount. Is that really biologically significant? That's what she said, but I think it was quite a lot more than this actually. It appears the chance of long term radiation damage to her brain would be quite significant. I can't believe you didn't go after her on that one. I did let it drop, because I was pretty busy with other things that day, but you are right, I should have. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 216] Author : Ducky Date : 16th February 2006 04:08 PM The tumor is a symptom? here's to hoping this idiot doesn't have any "symptoms." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 217] Author : bruto Date : 16th February 2006 10:08 PM The tumor is a symptom? here's to hoping this idiot doesn't have any "symptoms." Even if it were true that the tumor is a symptom of something else, that's a pretty p*** poor basis for policy if the symptom kills you before you get a chance to flush out the underlying cause. Sir, we've determined that your cardiac arrest is a symptom of bad diet, so instead of CPR we're going to give you a brochure on the benefits of oat bran. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 218] Author : Eos of the Eons Date : 16th February 2006 11:43 PM What is an example of their claimed "underlying cause"?? I can only imagine that they figure getting rid of "toxins" will just cure the cancer without chemo or radio? Healing energy hey? Energ healing flow hey? Why all the time wasted on fantasy wishful flimsy? Power of Placebo? Oh yeah, wish your cancer away. That works great. Wish wish wish. We are all entitled to our own view of the world; there is no place or need to be divisive or polarise our position to make a pointUsing that excuse to kill people with flights of fancy and reiki for cancer. These people figure if you can think it up, then it must be true. Flying pigs. Oh frac, she brings up Sheibner, Sheibner the ignorant geology bent spoon award freak that misleads the brainless that don't check facts. Typical. Just Typical. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 219] Author : Deetee Date : 17th February 2006 02:17 AM Oh frac, she brings up Sheibner, Sheibner the ignorant geology bent spoon award freak that misleads the brainless that don't check facts. Typical. Just Typical. Yup, good old Viera.....as much medical common sense in her whole body as my son's pet tortoise. :faint: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 220] Author : Rolfe Date : 17th February 2006 03:45 PM As a straw man argument she raised the Glasgow girl who had a mistaken radiotherapy overdose for her brain tumour as an example of bad orthodox medicine, which as we all know just treats "symptoms". I suggested that tragic as it was that she got an overdose, at least the radiotherapy had cured the tumour, and what would she have preferred - Reiki or radiotherapy? Her response wasFirstly I would say that I see the tumour as a symptom - not a cause of symptoms. Treating the tumour "effectively" with radio- or chemotherapy does not treat the underlying cause of the cancer. Go figure.What is it with these people, that they latch on to every report of an accident from real medicine as evidence that they can do something? This was news. Because it was an accident. The scores of people cured of their cancers successfully without any accidents every month don't make the news because they're routine! Hey, if reiki ever cured anyone, ever, now that might be news! OK, so radiotherapy (and chemotherapy and surgery) don't treat the cause of the cancer. Can she? (I like the bit about the pamphlet on the benefits of oat bran!) Rolfe. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 221] Author : Rachel1031 Date : 18th February 2006 04:25 PM Hey Fowlsound, I just recently joined the forum. I know about zero about medicine, but am grateful for modern medicine and hope it continues to work for you. I reach your paper and it was powerful. Can we quote it freely? (P.S., off topic, but I support stem cell research. I hope to live long enough to develop dementia.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 222] Author : Ducky Date : 18th February 2006 06:20 PM Hey Fowlsound, I just recently joined the forum. I know about zero about medicine, but am grateful for modern medicine and hope it continues to work for you. I reach your paper and it was powerful. Can we quote it freely? (P.S., off topic, but I support stem cell research. I hope to live long enough to develop dementia.) Quote all you like! Glad you liked it. PS I agree with you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 223] Author : Roadtoad Date : 19th February 2006 02:18 PM No waiting for me. I'm already pretty demented as is is... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 224] Author : Ducky Date : 22nd February 2006 09:59 PM No waiting for me. I'm already pretty demented as is is... #2 reason why I like Roadtoad. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 225] Author : Kopji Date : 25th February 2006 08:08 PM Hi fowlsound, Can you tell us a little more about the actual hardware? It looks like a Medtronic product. This is a specialized field, but links a lot of different technical and medical disciplines to make it all happen. This short article describes what happens for a lot of semi-custom medical devices: linky (http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/aug01/features/ondemand/ondemand.html) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 226] Author : Orangutango Date : 25th February 2006 10:07 PM Foulsound... You were among the first members here to welcome me to the boards (technically, the 4th one... but I am sure you would have been the 1st if you weren't out late that night shaving wombats with a rusty razor. By the way, Tim, that reverse mohawk he gave you really looks good on you. No, seriously. Ick...):p I want to offer you my most sincere hopes for a full and speedy recovery. Whenever you hear the Garth Brooks song "Friends in Low Places", think of me.:) Big hugs, Jen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 227] Author : Orphia Nay Date : 26th February 2006 12:25 AM fowlsound, I must add a note of support after reading your paper, this thread and some of your blog. I thought you seemed a cool guy just from your posts here, but after finding out you are coping with all this so - what's the word for "gracefully with appropriate anger"? - I am blown away with respect. Sorry to seem to gush, but please know you have significantly affected me, and it would seem, others. I will follow your progress with good wishes and confidence in your treatment. Wondering if the sound this fowl makes when meeting sCAM practitioners is "Quack!!! Quack!!!"... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 228] Author : Ducky Date : 26th February 2006 01:09 AM Wow. Thanks guys! lessee... Kopji: I don't know who specifically made it. I can sure find out though. I was only told it was titanium. I know the bone graft to rebuild height was surrounded in a titnaium cage, and that is probably very similar to the products described in your link. I would not be surprised if it was Medtronic, though. Orangutango: Thanks so much. :) Recovery at this point is really only watching to see it doesn't come back and maintaining the dull aches I get from time to time. I am walking without pain and without assistance, and I can run (the guys that mugged me for my laptop a few months ago got a good chase before they slipped away.) Thank you for your thoughts. orphia nay: You made my day. Thank you. I have tried to maintain as positive as I can be, and yet still as expressive enough as to get the sCAM folks to know to leave me alone. I would like to think I was graceful, but there are many nights over the past few years that were filled with swearing and anger and tears. It gets easier to cope with cancer once you hit the remission phase, but I still fear a return of systemic myeloma. When that comes, rest assured I will place all my efforts into therapies that are proven to treat cancer. There are a couple new drugs like Revlimid and Velcade that are very promising. Multiple Myleoma is not as well documented and studied as other cancers. I will update my blog and this forum with new writing on my progress as it happens. For now, I am on a hiatus waiting for the next round of tests and bloodwork and bone marrow biopsies to check for recurrence. You friend in battle of woo and cancer: FS. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 229] Author : Orphia Nay Date : 26th February 2006 10:57 PM :) It's nice to know you can be human and a superhero. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 230] Author : Kopji Date : 27th February 2006 10:50 PM Wow. Thanks guys! lessee... Kopji: I don't know who specifically made it. I can sure find out though. I was only told it was titanium. I know the bone graft to rebuild height was surrounded in a titnaium cage, and that is probably very similar to the products described in your link. I would not be surprised if it was Medtronic, though. You friend in battle of woo and cancer: FS. The technology in your spine is really amazing. Not as amazing as the real thing but still pretty good. Not everyone does well mentally with major surgery like this, so give yourself some major credit too. Not very many people feel comfortable enough about these things to post their cat scans on the internet. :) I only ask because the company that made it might really like to hear from you. (your doc would know) Due to privacy laws they only know you by a case number. There are probably hundreds of people who worked on it as a project without ever hearing or seeing the end results of their effort. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from International Skeptics Forum (https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums) at 6th October 2024 05:21 PM.