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A parapsychologist writes about leaving parapsychology

Ersby

Fortean
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About a month or so ago Louie Savva wrote an entry on his blog about why he left parapsychology. It makes for interesting reading. On my part, it's interesting that the large scale ganzfeld experiment he was helping to conduct is still unfinished. But what really caught my eye was this:

I was also involved in the informal testing of a number of other parapsychological claims (e.g. telephone telepathy) none of which showed a significant paranormal effect and none of which were written up and communicated to a wider audience.

You won't go far reading about parapyschological literature without someone mentioning how thorough they are about publishing all experimental results, good or bad and so there's no "file-drawer" effect to explain good results. Seems it may not be the case.

http://everythingispointless.blogspot.com/2006/11/why-i-quit-studying-parapsychology.html
 
About a month or so ago Louie Savva wrote an entry on his blog about why he left parapsychology. It makes for interesting reading. On my part, it's interesting that the large scale ganzfeld experiment he was helping to conduct is still unfinished. But what really caught my eye was this:



You won't go far reading about parapyschological literature without someone mentioning how thorough they are about publishing all experimental results, good or bad and so there's no "file-drawer" effect to explain good results. Seems it may not be the case.

http://everythingispointless.blogspot.com/2006/11/why-i-quit-studying-parapsychology.html


Interesting blog entry! I agree that the unpublished telephone telepathy experiments is of concern for the file drawer problem.

One thing strikes me as odd about one of Savva's reasons for leaving parapsychology. He implies that his own experimental attempts at psi phenomena came with no success. But of the two papers of his he cites, the first gave suggestive positive results and the other actually replicated Bems original findings quite well considering that the N number was 50 compared to about 200 for Bems experiments.
 
Matilda, the article mentions her a few times.

Ersby, thanks for the link, very interesting article and what looks like a great blog! *adds to bookmarks*
 
In a world of infinite financial resources, I think parapsychology, ghosts, etc. should be studied with full scientific rigour...

In a practical sense, it didn't take me very long with personal experimentation (~ 1 year or so of fully embracing the stuff), to learn that I couldn't do anything useful with it. Gravity you can verify by dropping a quarter on the ground...

... parapsychology... not so much.
 
Jimbo, I've often asked "how long does paranormal phenomena have to be studied scientifically before it just becomes yet another waste of money?"

The answer, it seems to me is "about twenty years, which expired some time ago".

Really, when you're talking about tests that are not using new technology, what possible value can they have in a world of finite resources? Isn't it just playing at fringe science? Surely the existing body of research is enough to come to the conclusion that scientific testing doesn't produce the desired results so either there is nothing there, or it's not testable in that way?

To paraphrase a friend, "there's only so long you can go scratching around for ghosts in the garbage."

Having said that, I think it had great value once upon a time and could again if televised. More on that if prompted :D
 
I just noticed that you were talking about my blog.

davidsmith73
He implies that his own experimental attempts at psi phenomena came with no success. But of the two papers of his he cites, the first gave suggestive positive results and the other actually replicated Bems original findings quite well considering that the N number was 50 compared to about 200 for Bems experiments.
That's easily answered. I was a 'believer' but now I'm a sceptic. As a 'believer' it is quite normal to interpret your statistical results as being 'suggestive', when a sceptic would just say 'well heck, what a surprise, you found absolutely nothing'. It's a kind of positive spin.

What I realised was this was just wishful thinking and bad science. And then I realised that it would be pointless doing it my entire life. So I gave it up. Hope that clears it up!
 
I just noticed that you were talking about my blog.

davidsmith73That's easily answered. I was a 'believer' but now I'm a sceptic. As a 'believer' it is quite normal to interpret your statistical results as being 'suggestive', when a sceptic would just say 'well heck, what a surprise, you found absolutely nothing'. It's a kind of positive spin.

What I realised was this was just wishful thinking and bad science. And then I realised that it would be pointless doing it my entire life. So I gave it up. Hope that clears it up!

Good for you!

I have a question if you don't mind me asking it here rather than on your blog: How many parapsychologists, in your experience, are believers?

And how much of that belief (if there is any) leads to bad science?
 
I just noticed that you were talking about my blog.

davidsmith73That's easily answered. I was a 'believer' but now I'm a sceptic. As a 'believer' it is quite normal to interpret your statistical results as being 'suggestive', when a sceptic would just say 'well heck, what a surprise, you found absolutely nothing'. It's a kind of positive spin.

What I realised was this was just wishful thinking and bad science. And then I realised that it would be pointless doing it my entire life. So I gave it up. Hope that clears it up!

You so rock.
Good luck with whatever you take on next!
 
Hello, Louie Savva. Glad you could join us. Nice blog, by the way.

That ganzfeld thing you were invloved in. Are there any further details? Was that the one investigating the experimenter effect?

And how many experiments would you say ended up unpublished in the time you were there? Do you think this is a widespread or uncommon practice?

And will we be able to read your phd thesis when it's done? It sounds interesting.
 
I just noticed that you were talking about my blog.

davidsmith73That's easily answered. I was a 'believer' but now I'm a sceptic. As a 'believer' it is quite normal to interpret your statistical results as being 'suggestive', when a sceptic would just say 'well heck, what a surprise, you found absolutely nothing'. It's a kind of positive spin.

What I realised was this was just wishful thinking and bad science. And then I realised that it would be pointless doing it my entire life. So I gave it up. Hope that clears it up!

Hello Louie, welcome to the forum!

I was going to ask you this on your blog site but I thought it would be better here since we're all together.

Do you still think that your precognitive habituation/boredom replication attempt produced results worthy of further study, as you seem to express in the paper? Or are you now inclined to explain them as chance findings?

It seems to me that the results were quite promising. Perhaps a larger study would achieve significant results?

I ask because I think the Bem experiments look very promising in terms of producing a replicable effect. I think its a shame that someone like yourself, who was in the position to perform replication attempts, has not taken this line of inquiry forward (or perhaps you have but I've not seen the paper).
 
I think its a shame that someone like yourself, who was in the position to perform replication attempts, has not taken this line of inquiry forward (or perhaps you have but I've not seen the paper)

whoops. Just read your abstract from the PA 2005 convention.

I was wondering why you used supraliminal rather than subliminal exposures for the follow up 2005 study?

Didn't Bem's original paper suggest that supraliminal exposures transform the experiment into a conscious "guessing game" and reduced the PH effect?
 
tkingdoll
I have a question if you don't mind me asking it here rather than on your blog: How many parapsychologists, in your experience, are believers?
Most parapsychologists are believers. They're not a completely homogeneous group and you have a few sceptics (like Richard Wiseman and Chris French) who aren't really parapsychologists, but interested psychologists. The rest of them working in academic parapsychology are pretty much certain of the reality of the phenomena.

And how much of that belief (if there is any) leads to bad science?
This is from my PhD:

I tested over five hundred participants in some eleven empirical tests, none of which provide evidence for any kind of paranormal functioning. Moreover what results are obtained highlight both the difficulty in conducting parapsychological research, and the responsibility of researchers to not make strong claims on the basis of weak evidence. Personal belief and previous paranormal experience appear to be strong motivating factors for parapsychologists.

In summary, parapsychology is identified as a thinly veiled theistic pursuit (one that’s very purpose is to provide evidence for a soul or spirit, and ultimately a god). Religion’s claims are regularly dismissed outright by science and the final argument is made that a similar attitude should prevail in the case of parapsychology. There may be many things that we do not, as a species, understand about the universe, but it does not permit a leap of faith to believing paranormal claims.

Ersby
That ganzfeld thing you were invloved in. Are there any further details? Was that the one investigating the experimenter effect?
Yes it was. There are a couple of in progress reports in the literature, but the final study has not been finished or published.

And how many experiments would you say ended up unpublished in the time you were there? Do you think this is a widespread or uncommon practice?
I would say that having students running informal parapsychology studies is fairly common and that only the successful studies really get reported. This does lead to a biased opinion.

And will we be able to read your phd thesis when it's done? It sounds interesting.
Is it interesting? I conclude that there's nothing really going on. I think that I would have preferred to read it, than research and write it. But such was my lot. I'm going to post snippets on my blog, which will hopefully be less of a chore to read.

davidsmith73
I was going to ask you this on your blog site but I thought it would be better here since we're all together.
Do you still think that your precognitive habituation/boredom replication attempt produced results worthy of further study, as you seem to express in the paper?Or are you now inclined to explain them as chance findings?

It seems to me that the results were quite promising. Perhaps a larger study would achieve significant results?
I ask because I think the Bem experiments look very promising in terms of producing a replicable effect. I think its a shame that someone like yourself, who was in the position to perform replication attempts, has not taken this line of inquiry forward (or perhaps you have but I've not seen the paper).
I suggest you look up my last publication in the SPR journal (Savva, Roe & Smith, 2006. Further testing of the precognitive habituation effect using spider stimuli). It outlines 2 precognitive habituation studies which I ran and which were not successful. That is one of the reasons I gave up parapsychology. I was involved in 3 PH studies (and many more other para studies) and looking over the results with sceptical eyes I realised that the evidence was very poor. Also mentioned in the SPR paper is the fact that an anonymous referee mentions 3 large unsuccessful PH studies that they had conducted and not published. Looking at the PH area with that new information, you have a few successful studies and potentially more unsuccessful studies.

But more than that. My entire PhD was an empirical test of precognition and I did not find any good evidence for believing in the paranormal. What I did discover is that human beings don't really understand concepts like chance and randomness, and they like to make patterns and links between random events in their lives.

My position now is that parapsychology is not science and should be dismissed outright. People like James Randi exist to test the nut cases and kooks and if any psychic superstars go on to win the million, then science would be interested in testing them. But I'm not going to hold my breath!

Hope this answers all of the question. :)

Obviously not:
I was wondering why you used supraliminal rather than subliminal exposures for the follow up 2005 study?

This is a technical issue. Getting subliminal exposure on CRT computer monitors is very difficult. Bem didn't necessarily use subliminal, just very quick. There are a few other technical issues with the whole area. I wouldn't get too excited. If we could easily show a precognitive paranormal effect using the technique, I would've found it!
 
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Welcome, Louie!

Can I make a suggestion? Where you have written:
Religion’s claims are regularly dismissed outright by science and the final argument is made that a similar attitude should prevail in the case of parapsychology.
Can I suggest the word "dismiss" be more correctly replaced with "discount"?

I would also not go so far as to entirely dismiss parapsychology per se, if it were conducted in as rigorous a way as most other scientific research. Granted, of course, that some "real" science is not immune from getting a solid belting for straying too far from the rigorous straight-and-narrow way too.
 
This is a technical issue. Getting subliminal exposure on CRT computer monitors is very difficult. Bem didn't necessarily use subliminal, just very quick.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Unfortunately, I can't get access to the SPR papers at this time.

I'm still a bit unsure. Your abstracts state that you used subliminal exposures for the 2004 study but then you switched to supraliminal for the 2005 study. Did you actually increase the exposure time or did you just interpret that your exposures were supraliminal for the 2005 study, when in fact you hadn't changed the exposure time from the previous 2004 study?

If you increased the exposure time for the latter study, I was wondering what you rationale was for doing that.

There are a few other technical issues with the whole area. I wouldn't get too excited.

What kind of technical issues are you talking about?
 
Hi David.

To quote from the SPR paper:
'The results from study I are clear; although there is a small yet significant deviation from chance overall, this does not take the form of a PH effect'
'In study II, despite the larger sample size, no PH effect was found.'

So 2 out of 3 PH studies I was involved with failed. Simple as that.

I am not very inclined to go back and look at my PH work and tell you all the ins and outs. It has been a long time since I actually was involved with the research and it is not part of my PhD. I would say disregard anything written by me before giving up parapsychology. I was mistaken and deluded.

I will tell you that conducting subliminal work using CRT monitors (as Bem originally does), it is difficult to ensure that the presentation is actually subliminal (if you can be sure at all). Researchers who are after real subliminal presentation often don't use CRT at all. Although Bem argues that actually it doesn't seem to matter (as far as I recall) and the PH effect is supposed to work regardless.

The fact is, my research showed nothing much. Bem's overall results were pretty unremarkable in replication. And there are other non-significant replications which remain unpublished.

At the risk of repeating myself, it isn't very different from any of the other paradigms I tested. And each time I found that it was due to bad methodology, bad stats etc, not real phenomena.

And to Zep:
I would also not go so far as to entirely dismiss parapsychology per se
Well after quite a long time being a parapsychologist, I would!
 
Jimbo, I've often asked "how long does paranormal phenomena have to be studied scientifically before it just becomes yet another waste of money?"

The answer, it seems to me is "about twenty years, which expired some time ago".

I think it depends more on whether the effect gets stronger with increasingly refined experiments - or not. When there is clear evidence that the effect diminishes to noise level with improved controls, then we are justified in saying that there is no effect at all.

It doesn't have to take 20 years. But I'll give you that the field of parapsychology is marred by a lack of willingness to admit total and utter failure...

I just noticed that you were talking about my blog.

davidsmith73That's easily answered. I was a 'believer' but now I'm a sceptic. As a 'believer' it is quite normal to interpret your statistical results as being 'suggestive', when a sceptic would just say 'well heck, what a surprise, you found absolutely nothing'. It's a kind of positive spin.

What I realised was this was just wishful thinking and bad science. And then I realised that it would be pointless doing it my entire life. So I gave it up. Hope that clears it up!

Thumbs up, mate. Stay on this forum, we need more like you. :)

I ask because I think the Bem experiments look very promising in terms of producing a replicable effect. I think its a shame that someone like yourself, who was in the position to perform replication attempts, has not taken this line of inquiry forward (or perhaps you have but I've not seen the paper).

Instead of thinking that it is a shame that someone else gives it up, why don't you replicate Bem's experiments?

You are the one who thinks they look "promising in terms of producing a replicable effect". Go ahead, put your money where your mouth is.
 
Also mentioned in the SPR paper is the fact that an anonymous referee mentions 3 large unsuccessful PH studies that they had conducted and not published. Looking at the PH area with that new information, you have a few successful studies and potentially more unsuccessful studies.

This is quite a revelation. I'd always taken the "no file-drawer" claim at face value, but from what you've said, it is a largely meaningless claim. I haven't been on lexscien for a while, and I'm not sure if your spider paper was one of those I saved to my disk, but I'll try to track it down.

Two more questions, if I may. Would you say there are many ganzfeld experiments that go unpublished? The procedure is so slow and cumbersome, I would imagine the problem of informal tests would be less, but I'd like to know what you think.

Secondly, when was the last time you saw a new issue of JoP or the JSPR? They don't seem to have come out in ages.

I'll keep an eye on your blog for stuff from your phd.
 
Interesting comments and reactions.

Ersby
Would you say there are many ganzfeld experiments that go unpublished? The procedure is so slow and cumbersome, I would imagine the problem of informal tests would be less, but I'd like to know what you think.
I don't know, but certainly the one I was involved with had some 40 trials (if not more). It was a big ganzfeld and is nowhere near finished.

I do know that a fellow parapsychologist once told me that there were problems with sound leakage between the sender and receiver in a different ganzfeld study. That sometimes the audio equipment allowed the receiver to hear the sender. I don't have many more details, but problems like this (which are beyond most parapsychologists' technical expertise) really undermine research. If you can hear each other then why do you need a paranormal explanation?

Secondly, when was the last time you saw a new issue of JoP or the JSPR? They don't seem to have come out in ages.
I really don't pay that much attention to parapsychology any more. :)
 
I do know that a fellow parapsychologist once told me that there were problems with sound leakage between the sender and receiver in a different ganzfeld study.
That sounds like the PRL trials.

I really don't pay that much attention to parapsychology any more. :)
Can't say I blame you. :)
 
PSP-"My entire PhD was an empirical test of precognition and I did not find any good evidence for believing in the paranormal. What I did discover is that human beings don't really understand concepts like chance and randomness, and they like to make patterns and links between random events in their lives."
Now that would make an interesting thesis!
 
I ask because I think the Bem experiments look very promising in terms of producing a replicable effect. I think its a shame that someone like yourself, who was in the position to perform replication attempts, has not taken this line of inquiry forward (or perhaps you have but I've not seen the paper).
David,

Can you not take this line of inquiry forward? Do I recall you saying that you are a parapsycologist (at the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at Edinburgh Uni.) ?
 
Welcome, PSP.

A question burning in my soul for years: What is actually going on? Why are psi experiments successful? Protocol leaks? Bad statistics? Innocent data filtering? Blatant cheating? Massive file drawers?

Do you have a feeling for what is happening?

~~ Paul

P.S. By the way, you're coming to TAM5, right?
 
Hi Paul.

Just call me Louie :)

A question burning in my soul for years: What is actually going on? Why are psi experiments successful? Protocol leaks? Bad statistics? Innocent data filtering? Blatant cheating? Massive file drawers?
All of the above and more. To be honest if you look at the evidence for precognition say (my specific area of research) there are no fantastic spontaneous cases - and people only began looking at the question empirically because people report paranormal experiences. There are lots of normal reasons why people have weird experiences.

And from all of the empirical work I've looked at, most of it is non-significant. Researchers say 'well just because so and so didn't find something, I'm going to' and plod along regardless of the evidence, prompted by their belief. I call it a house of cards. Poor studies piled on poor studies lead to a very muddy interpretation of what is essentially just a lot of noise (from various different sources).

I'm going to nail my colours to the mast. There is no god. No life after death. No ghosts, ghoulies or goblins. Parapsychology has existed for over 100 years and trust me, there's no good evidence.

Or don't trust me, trust the other parapsychologists, who are invested in the area.

I'll try and write something this week for my blog, giving some good examples of the dubious scientific practices I've found in parapsychology.

Oh and as for coming to TAM5. I would love to. But quitting parapsychology and running a science and atheism blog, doesn't leave me with huge funds. Perhaps I should've stayed and milked the publics' guillibility for my own profit. But I just couldn't do it.
 
David,

Can you not take this line of inquiry forward? Do I recall you saying that you are a parapsycologist (at the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at Edinburgh Uni.) ?
I remember him saying he was based in Edinburgh. In fact I think his "location" said just that for a while. But he always said he was just an interested observer, not an actual parapyschologist himself. I could be wrong, though.
 
PSP, is there a place online where I can read about your dream esp studies? I've never heard of that kind of study being done before. Is dream precognition something that has been researched often before?
 
PSP, is there a place online where I can read about your dream esp studies? I've never heard of that kind of study being done before. Is dream precognition something that has been researched often before?

There's quite a bit of dream ESP work out there and I'm sure google can help. Dream precognition used to be quite popular mainly thanks to Dunne's 'An Experiment With Time'. There's nothing very impressive though.

A couple of years ago, I studied a man who produced paintings based on his 'precognitive' dreams (including a couple of the twin towers collapsing, years before the actual attack). Was he really psychic? I was not convinced. Although we couldn't empirically test his claim, plenty of events (past and future) matched most of his pictures.

Lesson learned. Don't get too excited about any of it.
 
Just call me Louie :)

"Louie, Louie" it is... ;)

Parapsychology has existed for over 100 years and trust me, there's no good evidence.

Or don't trust me, trust the other parapsychologists, who are invested in the area.

Heck, we don't have to trust anyone. We can just look at the evidence.

....(looks around).....

Oh, well.... :confused: :)

Oh and as for coming to TAM5. I would love to. But quitting parapsychology and running a science and atheism blog, doesn't leave me with huge funds. Perhaps I should've stayed and milked the publics' guillibility for my own profit. But I just couldn't do it.

There are scholarships, you know. Very popular! :)
 
Heck, we don't have to trust anyone. We can just look at the evidence.

But you see, believing anything said by another human IS a matter of trust. You can't be there, next to every scientist or every person that makes a claim to information. Even if information is confirmed by others, that is no guarantee of veracity.

I'm merely saying, be careful who you trust or believe. They may be telling you a pack of lies.
 
There's quite a bit of dream ESP work out there and I'm sure google can help. Dream precognition used to be quite popular mainly thanks to Dunne's 'An Experiment With Time'. There's nothing very impressive though.

A couple of years ago, I studied a man who produced paintings based on his 'precognitive' dreams (including a couple of the twin towers collapsing, years before the actual attack). Was he really psychic? I was not convinced. Although we couldn't empirically test his claim, plenty of events (past and future) matched most of his pictures.

Lesson learned. Don't get too excited about any of it.

Is much of this other work done with people who can't be empirically tested?

If I'm laboring the point it's because I've had such repeated dream precognition/coincidences and have often wondered if there's a way I can tell if I'm being rational about it or if it's bound to be just too subjective, like the guy that makes paintings.
 
Is much of this other work done with people who can't be empirically tested?

If I'm laboring the point it's because I've had such repeated dream precognition/coincidences and have often wondered if there's a way I can tell if I'm being rational about it or if it's bound to be just too subjective, like the guy that makes paintings.

It's pretty normal actually. I experience coincidences all of the time. I'll give you a trivial one: I was recently up on a step ladder and hit a door into my head. I cursed atheism and said, 'cmon god, i'll believe in you if you're nicer to me'. I then stubbed my foot very hard.

You see we have lots of thoughts running through our heads (and we all probably dream every night). Is it surprising sometimes mental events occasionally tally with events going on in the external world? It's just chance. What would be strange is if this never happened!
 
David,

Can you not take this line of inquiry forward? Do I recall you saying that you are a parapsycologist (at the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at Edinburgh Uni.) ?

No, I just live in Edinburgh. An interested observer as Ersby says. If I had the opportunity to do some parapsychology and get paid for it, I would. I'm more optimistic about all this than Louie seems to be.
 
I'm going to nail my colours to the mast. There is no god. No life after death. No ghosts, ghoulies or goblins. Parapsychology has existed for over 100 years and trust me, there's no good evidence.

Louie,

I'm curious as to why your writings on your blog, and here, tend to focus on notions that parapsychology is searching for some kind of proof of god or life after death and that it is a "thinly veiled theistic pursuit". Granted, there certainly are parapsychologists who openly assume and embrace that the phenomena they purport to study would necessarily be interpreted as such. But I, for one, do not entertain any notion of god, life after death or theism when I look into parapsychological phenomena. In fact, I've been an atheist for as long as I remember and also been interested in psi for a long time too. If we assume for a moment that such things exists, would you consider the reality of psi phenomena to simply represent a natural aspect of consciousness and/or the brain interacting with its environment?
 
David.

Good for you, that you're an atheist. But if we are all part of a vibrating membrane floating in 11 dimensions, there is still no god and the universe will still not have been made for us.

I have considered the evidence. My own belief was that precognition was a kind of death avoidance - a time reversed reflex to stop people being killed. I thought there was evidence. There are some very interesting cases associated with the Titanic and the Aberfan mining disaster which suggest people have premonitions before disasters.

I looked at the empirical evidence and you know what? I received funding of over £10,000 pounds to try and breed a psychic beetle. For real. When I was conducting the research, I imagined I'd get a Nobel prize. And what did I fine. Perfect chance scores.

I've tested lots of humans too and not found anything which I now consider remotely interesting.

The point is, humans do not understand how big the universe is and how long it has been here. Chance and randomness are important concepts which we constantly underestimate.

I really am not interested in parapsychology any more. If you choose to waste what little life you get on it, so be it.
 
£10,000 pounds to try and breed a psychic beetle. For real. When I was conducting the research, I imagined I'd get a Nobel prize. And what did I fine. Perfect chance scores.

I would have done it (or tried to do it and fail?) for 9,000.

I really am not interested in parapsychology any more. If you choose to waste what little life you get on it, so be it.

Very well said.

Just curious - you're still in academia I presume? Is it now tough getting employment with a background in something so woo?

(I just realized you may cover this in your blog. I'll have to take a look.)
 
Hi Senorpogo.
Just curious - you're still in academia I presume? Is it now tough getting employment with a background in something so woo?
See this post on work. I think you may have to ask me that in a year or so though.

I'm hoping that since theism can generate huge funds and motivate others, that maybe atheism and science can do the same, with tangible benefits (not empty promises of a better afterlife).

So I'm just waiting for a rich atheist benefactor to start the ball rolling and I can really get going with my plans.

Since everything is pointless, what's the worst that can happen? Spend my life studying precognition?
 
No, I just live in Edinburgh. An interested observer as Ersby says. If I had the opportunity to do some parapsychology and get paid for it, I would. I'm more optimistic about all this than Louie seems to be.

Why do you need to get paid for it? Surely, you can find spare time to replicate just one of the experiments you find "promising"?
 
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