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My Adventures with a Freeman

sue858

New Blood
S
Joined
Sep 4, 2017
Messages
13
A quick introduction:
Back in 2012 I had a sordid fling with a genuine real-life Freeman-on-the-Land; I'll call him 'Ash'.

The time to share this brief chapter of my life would've been around 2013, but I didn't even know this place existed until last year. I did try joining up soon after I found these forums, but had problems registering until recently. I'd almost decided against posting this thread because it seems like the halcyon days of Freemanism are long gone. However, Xterra said in the 'Welcome' thread that I was still welcome to start a new thread. So I decided to post up anyway; worst that can happen is that everyone else thinks I'm beating a dead horse, in which case I'll just stop adding posts here and leave this thread to sink into obscurity. If others are interested then I'll keep adding bits as and when I remember them; don't expect my posts to be added in any order so logical as 'chronological'. And given that this all happened over half a decade ago, don't expect picture-perfect recollections from me.

In spite of the long period of time which has elapsed since all of these events occurred, I still feel I can offer some insights into the thought processes (such as they are) of a freeman/all-round-conspiracy-loon. An example to (hopefully) whet your appetites:

In paragraph 437 of Meads v Meads, Judge Rooke notes that one of the documents provided by Mr Meads bears "the cryptic notation “DLM042011960 SA 01 Registration # 11120912227”." The possible meaning/intended purpose of this kind of 'cryptic notation' is discussed no further in the judgement. Nor could I find such notations discussed anywhere - no "That won't work because ... " on these forums. Not even any "You should add X Notations because Y" instructions on freeman forums. Admittedly I didn't look very hard, so my explanation might already be out there somewhere. Nevertheless:

When Ash was showing me how to send an A4V (I think it was to the leccy company [LC], but it could have been any one of a dozen plus creditors he tried to pull his freeman stunts on), he started by showing me the 'Pay your debt to us now or we'll cut your power off' letter he was replying to. He pointed out the bit in the top left where details like his account number and the date were. In particular, he said I should notice their use of their own 'reference number' [R#].

"They think they can make me use the R# which THEY came up with for their own convenience!" Well, he'd show them; he'd use his OWN made-up R# instead and LC would have to bow to Ash's convenience OR ELSE!

You know what Freemen are like with their "Everyone is trying to trick you into entering a contract!" paranoia. Using LC's R# might somehow have indicated that Ash was agreeing to everything they wanted him to and entering himself into some sort of nefarious contract whereby he agreed to be bound by that infernal Admiralty law. Conversely, if Ash could trick LC into using HIS made-up R#, then THEY would be beholden to HIM and would be forced to something something free leccy for life!

In summary, Ash used a made-up R# for 3 main reasons:

  • To avoid being tricked into a contract.
  • To feel like the 'big man' because THEY are using HIS number, not t'other way around!
  • To try to confuse LC's filing system, causing Ash's letter to get lost somewhere for longer than the 10 days he gave them to reply "Or else they're automatically agreeing to everything I say!"

I'm guessing that Mr Meads's 'cryptic notation' was added for similar reasons.

So, what do you guys think? Do any of you actually want to read about my time with a Freeman, or am I far too late to the party for my stories to be of any interest?
 
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Yes please post more. It can be interesting and sometimes good for a laugh when freeman crazyness is discussed.
 
I tried posting in Quatloos, but I couldn't register there either. Either 2017 was a buggy year for Skeptics' forums or my email account was screwing with me! When I couldn't register, I thought Quatloos had been semi-archived (i.e. still showing content for posterity's sake but not accepting new members/posts). Anyway, I re-registered and it worked this time, so I'll continue this thread over there. I haven't posted enough to be able to post links yet, but the title of the thread is the same so anyone who's interested should be able to find it. Apologies for clogging up this esteemed forum; I hope I can make up for it with entertaining tales!
 
sue858 said:
I'm guessing that Mr Meads's 'cryptic notation' was added for similar reasons.
Click to expand...


That's a very plausible hypothesis based on your experience. Thank you for explaining it.

So, what do you guys think? Do any of you actually want to read about my time with a Freeman, or am I far too late to the party for my stories to be of any interest?
Click to expand...


I find it very valuable to try to understand other people's thinking, whether I agree with it or not—especially when I don't, or find it completely baffling at first.

Even if freemen themselves were a completely dead issue (I don't think they are; there are some still around and active, right?), it's likely the same patterns of thinking appear elsewhere as well, so examining them is still of great interest.
 
sue858 said:
I tried posting in Quatloos, but I couldn't register there either. Either 2017 was a buggy year for Skeptics' forums or my email account was screwing with me! When I couldn't register, I thought Quatloos had been semi-archived (i.e. still showing content for posterity's sake but not accepting new members/posts). Anyway, I re-registered and it worked this time, so I'll continue this thread over there. I haven't posted enough to be able to post links yet, but the title of the thread is the same so anyone who's interested should be able to find it. Apologies for clogging up this esteemed forum; I hope I can make up for it with entertaining tales!
Click to expand...

Always a Bridesmaid, never a Bride.
 
sue858 said:
I tried posting in Quatloos, but I couldn't register there either. Either 2017 was a buggy year for Skeptics' forums or my email account was screwing with me! When I couldn't register, I thought Quatloos had been semi-archived (i.e. still showing content for posterity's sake but not accepting new members/posts). Anyway, I re-registered and it worked this time, so I'll continue this thread over there. I haven't posted enough to be able to post links yet, but the title of the thread is the same so anyone who's interested should be able to find it. Apologies for clogging up this esteemed forum; I hope I can make up for it with entertaining tales!
Click to expand...

Here is the link to Sue's thread at Quatloos

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=11758
 
Myriad said:
Even if freemen themselves were a completely dead issue (I don't think they are; there are some still around and active, right?), it's likely the same patterns of thinking appear elsewhere as well, so examining them is still of great interest.
Click to expand...


Freemanism and its counterparts tend to follow a cycle that matches the economic situation. As people lose jobs in an economic downturn, they start looking for solutions to their financial problems, and a certain percentage of them will turn to Freemanism.

We had a big surge of it around 2008-9, which took a few years to run its course. Since we're doing pretty well these last few years, it's waned quite a bit. But with the new trade wars getting going, there's an expectation that economic problems will recur, which means we can expect another wave of Freemanism within the next couple of years.


So, yeah, reviewing lessons learned the last time around is probably a good idea right about now.
 
Always a Bridesmaid, never a Bride.
Click to expand...

Is that supposed to be a complaint? I was following Hans's advice, which I interpreted as "We're kinda over Freemanism here, but the Quatloos lot would be interested." I don't mind posting in both places, but I didn't want to arrogantly overestimate the entertainment value of my life story!

PS: Thanks for posting the link for me Hans.
 
From my limited experience there seems to be a lot of magical thinking, imitate the form of official letters (as with made up ref numbers) or fake legalise and you'll get the rewards. It's a twenty first century equivalent of bamboo control towers and coconut headphones.

From your greater experience does this seem fair?
 
sue858 said:
Is that supposed to be a complaint? I was following Hans's advice, which I interpreted as "We're kinda over Freemanism here, but the Quatloos lot would be interested." I don't mind posting in both places, but I didn't want to arrogantly overestimate the entertainment value of my life story!

PS: Thanks for posting the link for me Hans.
Click to expand...



Don't read too much into his post. There's different groups at each site, with some overlap. It's really up to you which you choose to post at, or to use both.
 
PJ Denyer: That was certainly part of it. But a lot of it was more pushback against being 'pushed around' by TPTB. "Why should They get to tell me that I can't smoke weed? What gives that hairy-arsed copper the right to feel me up based on a glorified hunch? Well, 2 can play at that game!"
 
sue858 said:
PJ Denyer: That was certainly part of it. But a lot of it was more pushback against being 'pushed around' by TPTB. "Why should They get to tell me that I can't smoke weed? What gives that hairy-arsed copper the right to feel me up based on a glorified hunch? Well, 2 can play at that game!"
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response, I'd draw a distinction there between motivation and method. The motivation can even be reasonable but if the means used to try and achieve those ends are effectively casting spells (in modern clothing) it's still ending badly.

But it would certainly explain the obsession with names (and reference numbers as a surrogate) and repeating forms of words. It's quite interesting to see a thing like this develope. In the UK we saw overtly magical superstition spring up with the Gardnerian 'witches' and then all the New Age stuff, but that was based on older (predominantly fictional) ideas, this us a genuinely modern phenomena.
 
Please post more, I'm fascinated by these guys. The logic of, "I'm not bound by your laws because of this other law..." is kind of awesome. Especially considering the other law either doesn't exist or is being completely misunderstood. There's also a weird magical thinking that if they can just say or write the correct words they reveal the whole house of cards that is jurisprudence. I wonder if these guys exist outside the anglosphere, the seem to rely on a lot old English Common Law.
 
ahhell said:
Please post more, I'm fascinated by these guys. The logic of, "I'm not bound by your laws because of this other law..." is kind of awesome. Especially considering the other law either doesn't exist or is being completely misunderstood. There's also a weird magical thinking that if they can just say or write the correct words they reveal the whole house of cards that is jurisprudence. I wonder if these guys exist outside the anglosphere, the seem to rely on a lot old English Common Law.
Click to expand...

This is the same point I've raised in a couple of posts in this thread, I find this aspect of it fascinating, they seem to have devised a system of magic based on parroting legal forms of communication.

Given time they may discover fire and simple mechanisms....:)
 
sue858 said:
In summary, Ash used a made-up R# for 3 main reasons:

  • To avoid being tricked into a contract.
Click to expand...

This stops right here...........He entered into a contract when he signed up for electric(in this case) in the first place. They delivered a service and he didn't pay.
 
DGM said:
This stops right here...........He entered into a contract when he signed up for electric(in this case) in the first place. They delivered a service and he didn't pay.
Click to expand...

Ah, but that was their contract. However, with the linguistic wrangling if he could get them to succumb to his contract, by apparently just some failure to perform condition in a letter, they would, to quote "Jeremy", "lay in pools of maroon below".

A couple of my good friends fell into this, to the point of even forming their own sovereign government with others. I was offered the position of county sheriff. Which apparently is considered the highest legitimate law enforcement position in a county. I politely declined.

While I had been looking into the sovereign citizen movement for some time (just for craps and chuckles) before I found they had become part of it. That new trend of opposing the government and now forming your own kind of struck me as odd. I guess it evolved form that dang old illegitimate government never seeming to fall for their shtick and starting the trend of imposing punitive damages, fines and court fees for touting the same failed arguments in courts.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
This is the same point I've raised in a couple of posts in this thread, I find this aspect of it fascinating, they seem to have devised a system of magic based on parroting legal forms of communication.

Given time they may discover fire and simple mechanisms....:)
Click to expand...

It is fascinating for me too for a variety of reasons. First, they believe that for hundreds of years governments have maintained an wide-ranging, huge, and intense conspiracy to delude the entire population into thinking that they must pay their taxes, get a driver's license, pay their debts, etc. i.e. - follow the laws. Freemen view the government and its police and courts as brutal thugs who help terrorize the citizen sheep into obeying these "fake" rules. Yet, according to Freeman doctrine, even a lowly citizen can cause the government to admit the truth and immediately back down simply by using the "right" magic letters, numbers, capitalization, flag fringing, or phrases:

Highway patrol- "Okay, you are under arrest for dangerous driving, driving without a license, prior failure to appear in court, tax evasion, property theft, assault, ..."

Freeman- "Officer I refuse to acknowledge your authority over me because of (obscure and irrelevant portions of) British Admiralty Law and the the Articles of Confederation."

Highway patrol- "Oh my God! My apologies sir! You caught me - you are absolutely correct - we just make all that up. Please carry on in whatever you were doing and I am sorry to have delayed you. Here, would you like part of my lunch sandwich to try to make it up to you?"

If the century old all-encompassing conspiracy part of the Freeman theory was true anyone citing the "real" rules would have to be immediately killed by the cop and their body dissolved in acid to maintain the conspiracy. Publicly revealing the conspiracy would be the most suicidal thing one could do!
 
DGM said:
This stops right here...........He entered into a contract when he signed up for electric(in this case) in the first place. They delivered a service and he didn't pay.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Not surprisingly many Freeman "beliefs" are means to get out of debts. The Freeman believe that magically they can get out of the legal requirement of paying back those debts. But even if that delusion was true, they apparently also have no moral qualms about stiffing the people who loaned them the money.

I see Freeman beliefs as often amusing, sometimes sad (that anyone can actually be sold this type of crap), and sometimes morally despicable.
 
Giordano said:
Exactly. Not surprisingly many Freeman "beliefs" are means to get out of debts. The Freeman believe that magically they can get out of the legal requirement of paying back those debts. But even if that delusion was true, they apparently also have no moral qualms about stiffing the people who loaned them the money.

I see Freeman beliefs as often amusing, sometimes sad (that anyone can actually be sold this type of crap), and sometimes morally despicable.
Click to expand...


They often justify it by claiming that what the other side provided wasn't "real". The bank just "created money out of thin air" when they gave him a loan to buy a house or a car, so why should they get anything back?

They fundamentally don't understand the relationship of the money supply to the creation of wealth through work that produces things of value, and how a mortgage is a promise you made based on your future ability to earn money, in order to by something today. To them, the money was created with a stroke of a pen, and so can be destroyed with one as well.
 
Meads v. Meads can be found here.


Paragraph 437 of the decision reads:


The “Commercial Security Agreement”, which is identified by the cryptic notation “DLM042011960 SA 01 Registration # 11120912227” purportedly promises that “DENNIS LARRY MEADS, A LEGAL ENTITY” assumes all debts and obligations of “Dennis-Larry:Meads, a "Personam Sojourn and People of Posterity"”, while granting Dennis-Larry:Meads all his property. Similarly, the “Hold Harmless and Indemnity Agreement Non Negotiable Between the Parties” causes “DEBTOR: DENNIS LARRY MEADS” to generally indemnify “CREDITOR: Care of Dennis-Larry Meads”.​


It comes during a part of the decision where the court is detailing all of the "very unusual" types of words Freemen use to try to pretend that they, as people, are somehow different from the legal name that they go by. (Id. at para. 425).

So, in short, I agree with the OP. It looks like a number made up by the Freeman in order to further the delusion that he is his own personal government.
 
sue858 said:
A quick introduction:
Back in 2012 I had a sordid fling with a genuine real-life Freeman-on-the-Land; I'll call him 'Ash'.

The time to share this brief chapter of my life would've been around 2013, but I didn't even know this place existed until last year. I did try joining up soon after I found these forums, but had problems registering until recently. I'd almost decided against posting this thread because it seems like the halcyon days of Freemanism are long gone. However, Xterra said in the 'Welcome' thread that I was still welcome to start a new thread. So I decided to post up anyway; worst that can happen is that everyone else thinks I'm beating a dead horse, in which case I'll just stop adding posts here and leave this thread to sink into obscurity. If others are interested then I'll keep adding bits as and when I remember them; don't expect my posts to be added in any order so logical as 'chronological'. And given that this all happened over half a decade ago, don't expect picture-perfect recollections from me.

In spite of the long period of time which has elapsed since all of these events occurred, I still feel I can offer some insights into the thought processes (such as they are) of a freeman/all-round-conspiracy-loon. An example to (hopefully) whet your appetites:

In paragraph 437 of Meads v Meads, Judge Rooke notes that one of the documents provided by Mr Meads bears "the cryptic notation “DLM042011960 SA 01 Registration # 11120912227”." The possible meaning/intended purpose of this kind of 'cryptic notation' is discussed no further in the judgement. Nor could I find such notations discussed anywhere - no "That won't work because ... " on these forums. Not even any "You should add X Notations because Y" instructions on freeman forums. Admittedly I didn't look very hard, so my explanation might already be out there somewhere. Nevertheless:

When Ash was showing me how to send an A4V (I think it was to the leccy company [LC], but it could have been any one of a dozen plus creditors he tried to pull his freeman stunts on), he started by showing me the 'Pay your debt to us now or we'll cut your power off' letter he was replying to. He pointed out the bit in the top left where details like his account number and the date were. In particular, he said I should notice their use of their own 'reference number' [R#].

"They think they can make me use the R# which THEY came up with for their own convenience!" Well, he'd show them; he'd use his OWN made-up R# instead and LC would have to bow to Ash's convenience OR ELSE!

You know what Freemen are like with their "Everyone is trying to trick you into entering a contract!" paranoia. Using LC's R# might somehow have indicated that Ash was agreeing to everything they wanted him to and entering himself into some sort of nefarious contract whereby he agreed to be bound by that infernal Admiralty law. Conversely, if Ash could trick LC into using HIS made-up R#, then THEY would be beholden to HIM and would be forced to something something free leccy for life!

In summary, Ash used a made-up R# for 3 main reasons:

  • To avoid being tricked into a contract.
  • To feel like the 'big man' because THEY are using HIS number, not t'other way around!
  • To try to confuse LC's filing system, causing Ash's letter to get lost somewhere for longer than the 10 days he gave them to reply "Or else they're automatically agreeing to everything I say!"

I'm guessing that Mr Meads's 'cryptic notation' was added for similar reasons.

So, what do you guys think? Do any of you actually want to read about my time with a Freeman, or am I far too late to the party for my stories to be of any interest?
Click to expand...

Hey, Sue and welcome to the forums.

Yeah, we sorta run hot-and-cold on some topics but the Freemen On the Lam seem to be in recession. I think when you have even crazier sorts actually sitting with the POTUS' ear, the fringe crazies get back-burnered.

I have no doubt they'll crop up again. They have a certain fantasy appeal to many people, not the least (in fact the dominant factor) is the something-for-nothing scammer mentality. Secrets like getting a veritable fortune for simply existing and having a birth certificate appeal to the lazier among us. Buying things and services and being able to then not pay on a clever technicality is really the same thing. It's petty avarice wrapped in pseudo political philosophy. My original thought was that they were just the new generation of conspiradroids raised on too many 286 computer games, thinking that "easter eggs" are real.

I'm an avid lurker in the Freemen threads. I know none, to speak of so it's just a morbid fascination. So by all means, post.

Question for you FotL regulars. Has there ever been one of their supposed "leaders" who you think actually believed this crap? Specifically, that they weren't simply scamming for bucks? The seem relatively intelligent (well, other than FotL beliefs) and relatively well-spoken. To me that just screams "Scam!"
 
The FOTL/sovereign citizen movement is far from dead, there is a blooming society of them in the UK, and they appear to be on the rise too in Oz and NZ, with examples now appearing regularly on tv, I even had the pleasure of watching one in action personally at a RBT stop here.
Many of the older gurus are of course MIA- either due to being jailed, broke or just plain too crazy- even for the sov cits, but there are certainly many people still willing to entertain us by attempting to follow the creed.

Definitely Quatloos is the goto place for sov cits/fmotl's, Fogbow is another forum to keep an eye on for people tracking their 'exploits'

Utube is full of sov cit/footlers 'fails' (I love the sound of breaking glass and screaming over the sound of a taser, accompanied by I do not consent, I do not consent!!! as the cuffs go on)
 
Foolmewunz said:
Question for you FotL regulars. Has there ever been one of their supposed "leaders" who you think actually believed this crap? Specifically, that they weren't simply scamming for bucks? The seem relatively intelligent (well, other than FotL beliefs) and relatively well-spoken. To me that just screams "Scam!"
Click to expand...
One of the advantages of being smart is it makes easier to justify you beliefs, even if you are wrong. Its often nearly impossible to determine if someone is a con artist or deluding themselves.

Sideroxylon said:
Cargo cult law.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science
Click to expand...

P.J. Denyer said:
This is the same point I've raised in a couple of posts in this thread, I find this aspect of it fascinating, they seem to have devised a system of magic based on parroting legal forms of communication.

Given time they may discover fire and simple mechanisms....:)
Click to expand...
I also thought of cargo cults when I read that post.
 
Cargo cults are mostly a thing of the past, eroded away by education and experience. FOTL may go the same way?
 
sackett said:
Cargo cults are mostly a thing of the past, eroded away by education and experience. FOTL may go the same way?
Click to expand...

Given the level of education that was required for people to see the flaw with cargo cults it's a pretty damning indictment that their spiritual successors are springing up in the richest countries in the world. Perhaps an indication that spending priorities need some consideration? To be fair, walking around the shops at places like Glastonbury depresses the hell out of me too.
 
Elagabalus said:
Why not call him ... Morgan? Wink.
Click to expand...
It took me like 10 minutes to get that joke. Worth it though! :D

DGM said:
This stops right here...........He entered into a contract when he signed up for electric(in this case) in the first place. They delivered a service and he didn't pay.
Click to expand...
It's possible that he entered in to one of those limited-time contracts (standard electric contracts tend to run for a year or two) then let the contract 'lapse'. LCs don't just cut you off the day your contract with them expires. They'll quite happily continue to supply you - at much higher than market rate prices, of course. Ash might have used the fact that his contract had lapsed to justify his A4V attempts to himself. But the Ash's attitude to electricity was quite complicated - I'll get to it in another post.

P.J. Denyer said:
I'd draw a distinction there between motivation and method. The motivation can even be reasonable but if the means used to try and achieve those ends are effectively casting spells (in modern clothing) it's still ending badly.
Click to expand...
That was what almost drew me in - the blurring between motivation and method - the ol' is/ought fallacy. Again, I'll go into more detail in future posts.

I was just going to post the rest in Quatloos and let anyone interested read and comment over there, but given the interest since shown in this thread I'll post here too. I'll begin each such copypasta post with "Quatloos Cross-Post", so anyone who's already following the Quatloos thread knows to skip it. I hope this won't violate any forum rules or anything.
 
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Quatloos Cross-Post

I'll start at the beginning with how I met Ash. Those who are only here for the FMOTL stuff can skip the first 2 paragraphs as they're pure Jeremy Kyle Show-fodder.

I met Ash during a night of heavy drinking (on my part only; Ash was more or less sober). We went back to his place for what I thought would be a one-night stand. Afterwards, Ash asked if I'd be up for another Adult Playtime Session. It turned out that our non-vanilla predilections were surprisingly compatible, and we talked about what activities we might engage in next time when the issues of my intoxication and our lack of familiarity with one another wouldn't muddy the waters of consent. Since we were on the topic of consent:

"You know what else only applies if you consent to it?" Ash asked. "Statute law!"

And off he went. I'd planned to sleep off my impending hangover, but instead we spent the rest of the night conversing on a carousel of conspiracy theories, some of which I might come back to in more detail if there's enough interest. Among those I remember:
Aspartame, fluoride and allopathic medicine are poison.
The Illuminati is behind everything. EVERYTHING. From 9/11 through all those weird symbols They plant throughout the media to that time you stepped in dog poo and didn't realise till you'd trod all over your brand new carpet, the Illuminati is behind it ALL.
Fiat currency = banks just printing their own money willy-nilly, so why shouldn't I be able to write off my own mortgage?

The next day, Ash gave me a lift back to my place, just in time for me to get to work. He drove at 50mph through 30mph zones (not at my request, mind - we had plenty of time; I think he sort of wanted to get pulled over so he could prove his point). His car was some flashy yellow sporty thing which he called his 'p**sy magnet' :rolleyes: . It stuck out like a sore thumb, so it was no real surprise when he was pulled over for speeding. No fear: Ash had his driving licence fee schedule at the ready! Ash proceeded to bludgeon the poor officer with a deluge of Freeman Blather. At one point, the policeman appealed to me. "Are you his girlfriend?" Asked the copper. I didn't want to lie to a police officer, but nor did I fancy divulging the current nature of my 'relationship' with Ash to him, so I said nothing. After an awkward silence, I was asked to "Please, talk some sense in to [Ash]; tell him to calm down."

This traffic stop lasted for about half an hour. We were about a mile away from where I lived, and I thought, "I could've walked home by now! If I want to make it to work on time, I'd better start walking." I was just about to tell the policeman this when he announced that he would let Ash go with a 'verbal warning'. "Great," I thought, "We can finally go." But no, Ash wanted to push the policeman further on why he, out of all the thousands of motorists who commit traffic offences every day, had been stopped. "Well, I wanted to get a good look at your sweet car," joked the policeman.

When we discussed the traffic stop the next time we met, there were a few talking points which almost convinced me that there was something to all this FMOTL stuff:
Ash was allowed to go on his way without so much as a speeding ticket. Looking back, the policeman had probably never encountered a FMOTL loon before so had no idea what Ash was on about. He didn't know how to confront such loons, and probably decided that he had better things to do with his time than argue with a nutcase over a speeding ticket. This is a good example of how/why some FMOTLers achieve minor 'victories' despite FMOTL being a load of balderdash. Unfortunately, being 'let off the hook' under such circumstances, especially when the encounter is filmed and posted on YouTube under a misleading title, lends FMOTLism undeserved credibility.

Ash also emphasised the policeman's question regarding our relationship. "What business is that of his? Whatever we do in this bedroom is our own business. We're not hurting anyone else, we're not breaking the law, so why should we have to divulge our private lives to bullies like him?" I'd previously had other encounters with the police which I'd resented for this reason - because they asked irrelevant questions which probed my private life and seemed more intended to embarrass me than to investigate a genuine crime. I'll explain this point later if there's interest.

On the topic of private lives, the copper asked Ash why the address on his Driving Licence was different to the one he'd insured the car under. Ash had just said that he was 'between addresses', but he later said to me, "I just said that because you would've been late for work had that stop gone on any longer. I could've said that I have 2 addresses. After all, if I can afford to own 2 houses, and I split my time more or less equally between them, why wouldn't I be able to use different addresses for different purposes according to what suited me and my mood at the time? In such a situation, why would it be illegal to have one address on my licence and another on my insurance?" To be honest, I've never come up with a proper answer to this, though I'm aware that "But what about this potential loophole?" doesn't invalidate the whole legal system.

Ash also complained that he'd been stopped 'just so the copper could ogle my car'. After all, if anyone else had wanted to see his car close-up, they'd have to just follow him around and wait till he parked. Nobody else would be able to make Ash stop for half an hour so they could see his car; why should the police have that power? I'm not entirely sure why the copper gave that answer, but I reckon it was half-joke, half "I'm not paid enough to deal with this kind of nutter, so I'm gonna call it a day now."

This incident also illustrates an interesting dilemma with the Freeman movement. One minute its gurus (I'm thinking of Menard specifically, but I'm sure other gurus act similarly) say that their followers should NOT 'go looking for trouble'. But they'll also boast about how they often drive around while drunk in an untaxed uninsured vehicle and, although often stopped, they never get in any real trouble with the law because their names are on some secret 'let him off' database of Freemen, thus implicitly encouraging their followers to follow suit. So which is it? Keep your head down and only bring out the Freeman stuff in the event that the authorities harass you despite your generally good behaviour, or keep your camera on while you flagrantly flout Admiralty Law so you can document and later boast about your wins against 'The Man'?

NB: Over on the Quatloos thread, The Rambler gave a very good possible explanation for Ash being let off the hook with the traffic stop: The policeman might have been planning on just giving a verbal warning the entire time, and all Ash's Freeman Gibberish did was draw the 5-minute stop out for 30 minutes.
 
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Quatloos Cross-Post


Not much Freeman stuff in this post, just some scene-setting needed to explain the stories to come.

When I met Ash, I was living in a squat. Not because of some pre-existing Freemanist leanings, just because I was a skint student and couldn't afford to live anywhere else. It was quite a decent place for a squat; it had running water and intermittently working electricity (to this day I don't know for sure where the leccy came from, though I suspect my neighbour's bill might have been rather higher than it ought). I didn't 'break in' or anything. It was a room in the basement of one of those houses which used to be a grand Victorian mansion but has since been divided up into bedsits and flats. The landlord hadn't yet got around to doing the basement. I think he started but didn't finish or something. In any case, there were no locks to break; I just walked in and made the place 'my own'. I didn't trash it or anything. If anything, I left it in a better condition than I found it because I managed to cadge a mattress and a working (so long as you remembered to put the belt back on between loads) washing machine from people who would otherwise have thrown them away. Those 'possessions' of mine stayed when I left.

This is to explain why I bit Ash's arm off when he asked me to move in with him, even though it was way too soon in our relationship to do so. It's rather ironic. In a lot of respects, I was living the Freeman dream. No rent/mortgage, free water and electricity, no council tax, etc etc. And it sucked!

I didn't even pay any of that dastardly income tax or national insurance because my job was cash-in-hand. Not through choice, mind. As a student I wasn't entitled to any state benefits and it was the only job I could find. I worked answering phones evening and weekends at a Chicken & Chip shop for £4 an hour. Minimum wage back then for someone my age was £5 per hour, but I was lucky - the other workers there were illegal immigrants, and they only got £3 an hour. I also got free food, but only if I ate it while at work or after clocking off but before going home. The owner didn't want to let me take food home because otherwise I might distribute it among my friends. Since I was skint and didn't have any cooking or refrigeration equipment to speak of (see 'intermittent electricity' and 'squat'), I rarely ate outside of work. In terms of work, only Friday and Saturday evenings were guaranteed (other days, I'd be called at 3pm and told to be there at 5 or 6 if I was needed), so I became used to going half the week without food and then eating a 'Family Bucket' of chicken & chips all at once.

I mention this because, on our second 'date', Ash took me to a restaurant. He expressed astonishment at how I could eat so much yet stay so slim. When I explained about my work and the 'free food'* (*see Ts & Cs). He was horrified. "How could you let them exploit you like that?!" he asked. Back then, I didn't make the mental connection, but if I saw Ash today, I would point out this. In Freemantopia, everyone could be exploited like this. After all, my boss and I were both adults who had mutually agreed to this 'contract'. What business is it of the state to impose such burdens as 'A living wage', 'Proper Health & Safety precautions' and 'Sickness/maternity pay' on workers who would be willing to relinquish such 'rights'?
 
Quatloos Cross-Post

In this post, I'll explore Ash's complicated views on electricity.

I mentioned in passing that I got 'free' (albeit unreliable) electricity. Now, I was under no illusions about the fact that someone, somewhere was paying for it. Maybe one of the electric companies (or rather their customers through marginally higher prices). Probably one of the people living legitimately in the house above me - possibly any one of them, most likely the one in the room directly above where the cables came down. I did consider introducing myself to them and offering to pitch in towards the difference. Heck, if I could've found the Consumer Unit which supplied the basement, I could've installed a meter between me and the CU so there'd have been no arguments about who was responsible for the latest shockingly high bill. But I didn't know how they would've reacted. Maybe they would've accepted my offer of a few bob a week in the spirit it was intended. On the other hand, maybe they would've been jealous that I was living rent-free and resentful of the fact that I'd heretofore been stealing leccy from them; they might've decided to get revenge by grassing me up to the building's owner, then next thing I know I would've been on the streets in search of a new place to live. I felt guilty about not paying my share, but not quite guilty enough to risk eviction by blowing my cover. 'Keeping my cover', by the way, also involved trying not to be seen going in and out of the basement, making as little noise as possible (no wild house parties for me!), stuff like that - I wasn't just looking for an excuse to not pay for my electric!

Ash, however, thought electricity should be free for everyone. He believed that there is some super-secret free energy technology that TPTB are keeping a secret for some poorly-defined reasons. At my college, I was doing a 'Beginner's guide to construction' course where I learnt the (very bare) basics of plumbing and electrics. So there was this time when, after I'd become so sick of listening to his rant that I gave up on trying to explain the second law of thermodynamics ("It was TPTB that taught you that 'law' in the first place!") and said, "OK, maybe there is some free energy machine out there, but I have no idea how to make it." So Ash said to me, "You're almost a qualified electrician (ha!) - have a google around and show me what you find." I knew I'd find nothing but scams, so I just bookmarked a few links to videos of machines which looked legit - at least to someone who thinks that the most likely explanation for a 2-minute YouTube video of some machine running without any apparent external power supply is that some random schmuck has invented a perpetual motion machine.

A few days later, Ash asks me how my 'research' went. I pull up the videos, but he immediately calls BS on them. I gently try to nudge him into realising for himself that there's no such thing as 'Free Energy', but he insists there is. I tell Ash that if he wants to get 'free energy', he should invest in rooftop solar panels or a garden wind turbine. Though I cautioned him that such an installation wouldn't power his whole house, but only a part of it. For example, evacuated tubes would just about give him hot water; a small wind turbine would just about cover his lighting needs etc. It would also require an upfront investment of at least 4 figures, if not 5. He might be able to get a loan to cover part of the setup costs, but not all of them. He reacted to the prospect of spending thousands of pounds in much the way you'd expect a Freeman to.

"Well," I said to him, "Even if the Electric Company was producing most of their energy from renewable sources as opposed to fossil fuels, they would still have had to pay incredibly high startup costs. How would you propose they cover the cost of that initial outlay?" Ash insisted that the Electric Company need not invest exorbitant sums in wind or solar or hydro; they could build a large version of the Super Secret Free Energy Machine [TM]. I pointed out that, even if such a machine existed, it would still require significant resources to build in the first place. It would also require ongoing maintenance. Although its maintenance costs would be much lower than a conventional power station's, they wouldn't be nil. Even if the only maintenance an SSFEM needed was an annual once-over and the occasional squirt of WD40, that would still cost about £50 a year. Who should pay that? You'd also still have to cover the costs of distributing that electricity somehow. Those pylons don't pull themselves back up after a bad storm, y'know. Ash countered with "Tesla invented an SSFEM which can also distribute electricity through the air." Now, Wireless Power Transfer isn't total BS, but its real-life applications are limited; 'Transferring power from a faraway large SSFEM to your energy-sucking house' is, as far as I can tell, outside those limits. There would also still be setup and maintenance costs associated with such a method of distribution, though I couldn't speak to the relative costs of air vs wire distribution methods.

Ironically, Ash also subscribed to the 'Phone masts are giving everyone cancer' theory. Since those two topics were discussed at different times, I never saw the contradiction till now. But I guess his response would've been that since power lines give everyone cancer too, at least with air distribution the hazard would be spread evenly (and therefore more thinly) rather than unfairly falling mostly on those living near power lines. If things were the other way around - if electricity were currently all air-distributed - Ash would probably wish that a cable method of distribution were used instead, since then at least one could avoid getting too close to the 'danger'. And if someone wants to live near a pylon, well, that's their lookout.

But I digress. "Say you somehow managed to make your own SSFEM." I asked. "Would you be willing to give away half the energy it produces to your next-door neighbour? How about keeping only 10% for yourself - you could power your whole street with the remainder!" Well, the only thing that gets a Freeman riled up more than spending money is the idea of spending money for someone else's benefit. He sputtered about for a bit trying to explain why the electric company should be willing to let him have free electricity when Ash would never in a million years want to pay for an SSFEM for his neighbours. He eventually settled on "Because they're keeping their FEM secret. If only they would release the blueprints, everyone would be able to make their own, and then there'd be no need to distribute the energy; you'd just make and use your own. But because they're keeping the FEM plans a secret to maintain their profitable monopoly, I'm morally justified in trying to rip them off."

From what I've seen, there's a lot of overlap between FMOTL and Free Energy. I guess that stems from the need of such people to believe that everything in life is (or should be) free. It begs the question though as to why FMOTL feel the need to A4V their electric bills when, with a trip to the local scrapyard and a little elbow grease, they should be able to make their own free leccy in no time. Well, aside from SSFEM being BS, 'a little elbow grease' is a lot more than the typical Freeman is willing to exert, so there's that.
 
Interesting. I'm afraid I can't quite figure out what a "Freeman" is (except apparently a complete sucker), but ... I'll follow.

Hans
 
sue858 said:
Unfortunately, being 'let off the hook' under such circumstances, especially when the encounter is filmed and posted on YouTube under a misleading title, lends FMOTLism undeserved credibility.

....
On the topic of private lives, the copper asked Ash why the address on his Driving Licence was different to the one he'd insured the car under.
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I noticed this when I first read your thread at Quatloos, and your point above about their "wins" is very true. He sort of brushes past this point, but if "the address on his Driving Licence was different to the one he'd insured the car under", this means that he had both a driving license, and insurance.

So his great Freeman victory consisted of him wasting all that time arguing with a cop who had nothing more to charge him with than speeding, and even that was at the cop's discretion, as it always is. Anyone in that situation who wasn't a Freeman would have likely been let go with a warning much sooner, by just admitting they were speeding, and acting contrite. I've done exactly this myself.

But I'm sure he still tells this tale as The Day He Put One Over On The Man.
 
BTW: I'd like to add my own belated welcome to the boards. Thanks for sharing in this way, I for one am finding it very interesting.
 
sue858 said:
Is that supposed to be a complaint? I was following Hans's advice, which I interpreted as "We're kinda over Freemanism here, but the Quatloos lot would be interested." I don't mind posting in both places, but I didn't want to arrogantly overestimate the entertainment value of my life story!

PS: Thanks for posting the link for me Hans.
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Your interpretation is correct. Hey, I'm glad you got a decent reception over there, not a place of which I am a member, but reading the thread, it seems pleasant and so far, everyone seems to be positive and encouraging. That's a win.

As far as this place goes, we are all just a little tired of the FOTL malarkey. One can only listen to so much of it. Menard the Retard probably pushed many of us over the edge with regard to rational discussion of FOTL matters. He finally bought the ban hammer, so we can all malign him at will. Oddly, we don't much really. That just tells you how irrelevant the guy was. I think member Aridas still posts occasional updates, but even those are few.

You could chuck a PM his direction. That would be a rich vein of source material.

As for posting here, I cannot speak for everyone, but I find your POV to be at least an interesting perspective. There are plenty of folks here who have simply washed their hands of FOTL stating that they have had a sufficiency of that nonsense. Truth be told, I am close to that position myself. I am quite happy to allow some wiggle room. But it is up to you to choose how to wiggle.

Other than that, I am not a spokesgronk for anyone. Can you at least understand that we are tired of all the FOTL baloney?
 
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