[Moderated] JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

HSienzant · Mar 17, 2014

Continued from here.

Posted By: LashL

bobtaftfan said:
So it was all just a big, whopping coincidence. Let's see:

* Brading goes to New Orleans a few weeks before the assassination and "just happens" to use an office next to the office of Mafia kingpin Carlos Marcello's attorney, and by "sheer coincidence" David Ferrie frequently visited that same office. Gosh, figure the odds, hey?
* Brading, two days before the assassination, travels to Dallas with--whaddaya know!--four Mafia guys.
* Brading and his Mafia buddies check into the same hotel where, the very next day, Jack Ruby meets Lawrence Myers. Wow, cosmic "chance" again!
* Brading and his Mafia pals visit the Hunt office the same day that Jack Ruby does. Humm, figure the odds that Brading and Ruby would "just happen" to visit the same hotel and then go to the same office building and visit the same office within 24 hours.
* Brading is not only in Dealey Plaza during the shooting, but he goes into the Dal-Tex Building, the same building from which a number of witnesses believed shots were fired--and when asked what he was doing in Dealey Plaza and why he entered the Dal-Tex Building, Brading gives answers that a rookie detective could spot as implausible and suspect, not to mention contradictory.

You must be kidding to dismiss all of this evidence as mere chance. But to believe in the lone-gunman theory, you have no choice but to do so.

Please name the verifiable Dealey Plaza witnesses [plural] that thought shots came from the TSBD. Citations would be nice.

Hank

HSienzant · Mar 17, 2014

bobtaftfan said:
This is simply erroneous. You cherry-pick a handful of specific frames and conclude that there was no line of sight to JFK from the Dal-Tex Building.
To make matters worse, many on your side suggest that the alleged sixth-floor gunman fired at JFK when the limo was beneath the oak tree, i.e., when the oak tree was between the gunman and the limo.

Sigh. . . . When given the chance to explain, Willis stated that he heard shots from both directions.

And, uh, if the fact that Rosemary Willis turned to look back at the TSBD indicates that shots came from that direction, what do you say about the fact that a number of people turned to look toward the grassy knoll? If one person turning to look back means shots from the TSBD, then several people turning to look toward the grassy knoll should logically mean shots from the grassy knoll. It's not either/or. Shots came from the front and from the rear.

That's not what Phil Willis' testimony was in 1964 before the Warren Commission....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/willis_p.htm

...
Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis?
Mr. WILLIS. Three shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that at all?
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir.
...
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit in head?
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. Being directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the street where the building was.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard shots?
Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.
Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that?
Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure?
Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up....

Five years later, it's still NOT what he was saying (testimony at the Clay Shaw trial).
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/willis_pshaw.htm

...
Q: I show you what the State has previously identified as S-33 and I ask you whether or not this is the photograph that you took at the time you said you heard the first shot?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: After having taken this photograph, Mr. Willis, what did you do?
A: My two little daughters were running along down the hill paralleling the Presidential car there and I yelled to one of them, which is the firs thing I did, and then I heard at least two more shots and then I started looking for them and looking down and hollering for them to come back to me and they came running back crying.
...
Q: While in Dealey Plaza after having heard the first shot that made you take that one picture, will you tell us whether or not you heard any other noises similar to the first noise?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many did you hear all told?
A: I assumed two more.
Q: So it'd be a total of three, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you tell us the area in which you heard these shots coming from?
A: I was looking down here and I felt certain that they came from my right in that area across there.
Q: Mr. Willis, did you have occasion to see any affect that any shot may have had on any occupants in the Presidential limousine?
A: Honestly, no, sir, because I was trying to use the view finder for the camera and I was more interested in getting the whole car than focusing on an individual. I did not.
MR. OSER: I tender the witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Mr. Willis, you say that to the best of your recollection, in considering the circumstances of excitement, that you heard three shots, is that right, sir?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now as I understand it, Mr. Willis, you were standing here at the point indicated by the flag with your name on it on State Exhibit-35, is that correct?
A: Yes, sir, by that tree.
Q: And you say you were looking down here, and by down here do you mean down Stemmons Freeway?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you say the shots came from your right, is that correct?
A: They sounded as if they did.
Q: Is it not a fact that the Texas Book Depository was to your right?
A: Sir?
Q: Was the Texas Book Depository to your right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: That is all, sir.

Three shots, from the TSBD. In his testimony to the WC and in the Shaw trial. He said nothing about hearing shots from two different places in the first five years after the assassination. You got something decades later, I presume, when his memory was not as strong and he was possibly influenced by books about a conspiracy and a grassy knoll shooter?

Hank

HSienzant · Mar 17, 2014

bobtaftfan said:
No, I meant "evidence."

They are. (Well, actually, Brading traveled to Dallas with three Mafia guys, not four. I was including Brading in the count.)

Because the patsy was not framed in that building. There's also the fact that Dallas authorities failed to do even minimal investigation of the two men who were arrested in/coming out of the Dal-Tex Building.

This said, if memory serves, there is some photographic evidence of a shot from the Dal-Tex Building (a bystander seeming to react to a startling event, such as a gun shot), though I might be thinking of the County Records Building.

No, you're thinking of an allegation by Harold Weisberg, who claimed in WHITEWASH or PHOTOGRAPHIC WHITEWASH, or both, that the person sitting on the fire escape in the Altgens photo appeared to be "in some distress" but claimed that the magnification available did not allow him to ascertain anything further.

But the image shows nothing of the sort, and neither do other images showing the man on the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building.

In short, you're remembering the claim, but not the fact that there's no evidence behind it. If you beg to differ, present the evidence of "a bystander seeming to react to a startling event".

Thanks much.

Hank

HSienzant · Mar 17, 2014

bobtaftfan said:
So it was all just a big, whopping coincidence. Let's see:

* Brading goes to New Orleans a few weeks before the assassination and "just happens" to use an office next to the office of Mafia kingpin Carlos Marcello's attorney, and by "sheer coincidence" David Ferrie frequently visited that same office. Gosh, figure the odds, hey?