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Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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That's my rationale too. Frankly, even if the police were planning to use nothing more coercive than the Reid Technique (or a variant of it) in those interrogations of Sollecito and Knox, it would still be worth their while making sure the interrogations were not recorded electronically for posterity. After all, the Reid Technique is only ever applicable in a situation where the interrogators clearly suspect the person being interrogated - and the police and PM needed to pretend that this was not the case with either Sollecito or Knox. They needed to be able to claim that they were just questioning Sollecito and Knox as witnesses, and that the "confessions of criminal acts" just came out of a clear blue sky.

But I tend to agree with you that the police intended to use techniques in those interrogations that went well beyond the Reid Technique (or, at the very least, they felt there was a high possibility that they would use such "enhanced" techniques). And so there was an even greater incentive to ensure that no electronic record of the interrogations could ever see the light of day. And, like you (and as I've stated several times), I'm of the strong opinion that this sort of thing was a relatively common and well-practised piece of choreographed deception on the part of police and PMs. They had, IMO, got well used and well practised to "figuring out" who the culprit(s) was/were for any given serious crime, and then getting the person(s) in for an interrogation as a "witness", which afforded them the dual advantage of not having a pesky lawyer present, and (more importantly) using any manner of techniques and threats to get their person(s) to make confessions, without any requirement to record the proceedings electronically (and with the only recording of proceedings being the written record of one of the interrogating officers - and any fool could see straight away how this could work in a way that either covered up or totally ignored any police malpractice during the interrogation).

Agreed 100%. If interrogators intend to follow the law, they want the interrogation on tape so any confession cannot later be claimed by the suspect to be the result of coercion.

Amanda's claim that she had been smacked and been led to imagine what happened etc. could have been easily disproved by the existence of a tape if untrue. For her to falsely claim this when she did not know it had not been taped would have been foolhardy. The fact she did claim this indicates that she was telling the truth.
 
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Bill, your post is interesting but it does not reflect the procedural law of the Italian Republic or the case-law of the European Court of Human Rights under the European Convention on Human Rights.

Under CPP Articles 64.2 and 188, statements may not be obtained by coercion, that is, by any method that influences the self-determination of the suspect, or witness who is a de facto suspect.

The ECHR has stated that a trial is unfair if evidence obtained by coercion is used to obtain a conviction. The purpose of ECHR case-law insisting that a suspect have a lawyer present during an interrogation is to prevent coercion, according to the ECHR.

The police conducted their interrogations without recordings to allow their use of coercion, which violated Italian and international law, to be hidden.

I should add: under Italian procedural law, evidence gathered contrary to the prohibitions set by law shall not be used (CPP Article 191.1). I believe that this means that any statement obtained under coercion cannot be legally used as a basis to arrest or to convict someone.
The fly in this proverbial ointment, is that at the time they probably never thought they'd ever have to use the "confessions", coerced or not.

The point of them was to convince the first judge to agree to precautionary detention - all the while fully expecting the forensics to eventually back them up.

My belief is that they also believed that Raffaele would soon turn, once again supplying even more evidence against Knox - the real target.

When the shoddy forensics came in, when Raffaele did not turn - then they had to find Nara, Quintavalli and Toto - and it was others who had to supply them!!

So - the interrogations were coerced but who cares, really, when it was supposed to put a rope around the two with every expectation that it could be tightened later.

Only - it fell apart for the prosecution.
 
The fly in this proverbial ointment, is that at the time they probably never thought they'd ever have to use the "confessions", coerced or not.

The point of them was to convince the first judge to agree to precautionary detention - all the while fully expecting the forensics to eventually back them up.

My belief is that they also believed that Raffaele would soon turn, once again supplying even more evidence against Knox - the real target.

When the shoddy forensics came in, when Raffaele did not turn - then they had to find Nara, Quintavalli and Toto - and it was others who had to supply them!!

So - the interrogations were coerced but who cares, really, when it was supposed to put a rope around the two with every expectation that it could be tightened later.

Only - it fell apart for the prosecution.

Only, in contradiction to your theory that the coerced statements were not intended for use at trial, Mignini went on to extract a "spontaneous statement" from Amanda. And the beginning of the statement, using the legal catch-phrase (an Italian legalism term) "spontaneous statement", indicates Mignini was feeding her what to say and that he indeed intended to obtain a statement usable in court from the Nov. 5/6 interrogations.
 
There are numerous questions raised by what happened in the interrogation :-

• Why is that the accusations made against Amanda and Raffaele in the interrogations bear no resemblance to what Amanda and Raffaele were later accused of :-

During the interrogations Amanda was never accused of stabbing Meredith and the statements prepared for Amanda made no mention of Amanda stabbing Meredith. Raffaele was also never accused of stabbing Meredith. In view of this why did the police collect a knife from Raffaele’s apartment and claim Amanda or Raffaele stabbed Meredith? If Amanda or Raffaele had stabbed Meredith, why were Amanda and Raffaele never accused of this in the interrogations?

If Amanda and Raffaele had staged a break in, why were they never accused of this in the interrogations? Why did the statements the police prepare for Amanda and Raffaele made no mention of them staging a break in?

In the interrogations it seems that Raffaele was accused of covering up for Amanda and was not accused of directly taking part in Meredith’s murder. The statement the police prepared for Raffaele made no mention of Raffaele taking part in Meredith’s murder. During the interrogation of Amanda the police never said Raffaele was present during Merediith’s murder and the statements the police prepared for Amanda made no mention of Raffaele being present when Meredith was killed. In view of this why was Raffaele later accused of directly taking part in Meredith’s murder?

Why did the defence not make an issue of the fact that the accusations made against Amanda and Raffaele were not initially made in the interrogations and the police/prosecution could not come up with a coherent narrative of the roles played by Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith’s murder?

• If the prosecution had a mountain of evidence and a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele, how do you explain the conduct of the police during the interrogations? The prosecution denied Amanda and Raffaele access to lawyers, their rights were not explained and the interrogations were not taped? Why did the prosecution have to resort to these tactics and if they had a pile of evidence and a slam dunk case? If there was a mountain of evidence, why were Amanda and Raffaele not presented with this evidence? If the behaviour and actions of Amanda and Raffaele in the three day period prior to the interrogations was so suspicious, why did the police never make an issue of or ask a single question regarding the actions of Amanda and Raffaele in this period? Amanda and Raffaele were not presented with any forensic evidence. If the police had a mountain of evidence and a strong case, why did the police have to resort to preparing statements for Amanda and Raffaele to sign? Why did the police have to rely on coerced confessions if they had a mountain of solid evidence against Amanda and Raffaele?
 
The fly in this proverbial ointment, is that at the time they probably never thought they'd ever have to use the "confessions", coerced or not.

The point of them was to convince the first judge to agree to precautionary detention - all the while fully expecting the forensics to eventually back them up.

My belief is that they also believed that Raffaele would soon turn, once again supplying even more evidence against Knox - the real target.

When the shoddy forensics came in, when Raffaele did not turn - then they had to find Nara, Quintavalli and Toto - and it was others who had to supply them!!

So - the interrogations were coerced but who cares, really, when it was supposed to put a rope around the two with every expectation that it could be tightened later.

Only - it fell apart for the prosecution.

Except they did not; these were 'found' by a journalist who having extracted an 'exclusive' then presented the witnesses to the police a year later (more or less). Having had initial forensics collapse (the shoe print, the DNA, the handprint), they then went for more forensics (bra clasp, luminal positive prints in the hall).
 
There are numerous questions raised by what happened in the interrogation :-

• Why is that the accusations made against Amanda and Raffaele in the interrogations bear no resemblance to what Amanda and Raffaele were later accused of :-

During the interrogations Amanda was never accused of stabbing Meredith and the statements prepared for Amanda made no mention of Amanda stabbing Meredith. Raffaele was also never accused of stabbing Meredith. In view of this why did the police collect a knife from Raffaele’s apartment and claim Amanda or Raffaele stabbed Meredith? If Amanda or Raffaele had stabbed Meredith, why were Amanda and Raffaele never accused of this in the interrogations?

If Amanda and Raffaele had staged a break in, why were they never accused of this in the interrogations? Why did the statements the police prepare for Amanda and Raffaele made no mention of them staging a break in?

In the interrogations it seems that Raffaele was accused of covering up for Amanda and was not accused of directly taking part in Meredith’s murder. The statement the police prepared for Raffaele made no mention of Raffaele taking part in Meredith’s murder. During the interrogation of Amanda the police never said Raffaele was present during Merediith’s murder and the statements the police prepared for Amanda made no mention of Raffaele being present when Meredith was killed. In view of this why was Raffaele later accused of directly taking part in Meredith’s murder?

Why did the defence not make an issue of the fact that the accusations made against Amanda and Raffaele were not initially made in the interrogations and the police/prosecution could not come up with a coherent narrative of the roles played by Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith’s murder?

• If the prosecution had a mountain of evidence and a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele, how do you explain the conduct of the police during the interrogations? The prosecution denied Amanda and Raffaele access to lawyers, their rights were not explained and the interrogations were not taped? Why did the prosecution have to resort to these tactics and if they had a pile of evidence and a slam dunk case? If there was a mountain of evidence, why were Amanda and Raffaele not presented with this evidence? If the behaviour and actions of Amanda and Raffaele in the three day period prior to the interrogations was so suspicious, why did the police never make an issue of or ask a single question regarding the actions of Amanda and Raffaele in this period? Amanda and Raffaele were not presented with any forensic evidence. If the police had a mountain of evidence and a strong case, why did the police have to resort to preparing statements for Amanda and Raffaele to sign? Why did the police have to rely on coerced confessions if they had a mountain of solid evidence against Amanda and Raffaele?

I think you make a good case, the 'confessions' of Sollecito and Knox make no reference to 'facts' subsequently claimed by the police. If anything they betray ignorance of the facts. One of the key arguments made was Sollecito and Knox were immoral, were liars, thus the witness placing them in the plaza although logically providing an alibi, was important as it 'proved' Sollecito and Knox lied about being in Sollecito's place. Sollecito's changing story about whether Knox went out or not the night of the murder provided no evidence of participation just served to suggest one or both were immoral. In the UK judges have to inform juries that lying is not evidence of guilt, there maybe reasons to lie about where one was other then being a participant in a crime.
 
Bill Williams said:
When the shoddy forensics came in, when Raffaele did not turn - then they had to find Nara, Quintavalli and Toto - and it was others who had to supply them!!
So - the interrogations were coerced but who cares, really, when it was supposed to put a rope around the two with every expectation that it could be tightened later.

Only - it fell apart for the prosecution.
Except they did not; these were 'found' by a journalist who having extracted an 'exclusive' then presented the witnesses to the police a year later (more or less). Having had initial forensics collapse (the shoe print, the DNA, the handprint), they then went for more forensics (bra clasp, luminal positive prints in the hall).

As highlighted.
 
possible tertiary DNA transfer

During the course of a discussion about the JonBenet Ramsey case, Professor William Thompson discussed another case: "'The DNA came from a person who had carried the wrapped items from the crime scene to a truck to take to the crime lab,' Thompson said. 'So somebody who had never touched the items, but had touched the exterior of the wrappers of the items, that person's DNA was apparently transferred onto the wrappers. Then when the wrapped items got back to the crime lab and were unwrapped, the analyst apparently touched the wrappers and then touched the items, transferring it onto the items — in a way that made it indistinguishable from DNA that would have been deposited there during that crime.'" This is probably an example of tertiary DNA transfer: From a person to a wrapper, to a glove, and then to the item. Even if it is somehow only secondary transfer, it is a cautionary tale about DNA transfer during the handling of evidence. This is obviously relevant to the DNA in the Knox/Sollecito case, in which the possibility of tertiary transfer via contact has been challenged.
 
During the course of a discussion about the JonBenet Ramsey case, Professor William Thompson discussed another case: "'The DNA came from a person who had carried the wrapped items from the crime scene to a truck to take to the crime lab,' Thompson said. 'So somebody who had never touched the items, but had touched the exterior of the wrappers of the items, that person's DNA was apparently transferred onto the wrappers. Then when the wrapped items got back to the crime lab and were unwrapped, the analyst apparently touched the wrappers and then touched the items, transferring it onto the items — in a way that made it indistinguishable from DNA that would have been deposited there during that crime.'" This is probably an example of tertiary DNA transfer: From a person to a wrapper, to a glove, and then to the item. Even if it is somehow only secondary transfer, it is a cautionary tale about DNA transfer during the handling of evidence. This is obviously relevant to the DNA in the Knox/Sollecito case, in which the possibility of tertiary transfer via contact has been challenged.

I am still looking for one of the documentaries of Ric Gillespie's search for Amelia Earhart on Nikumaroro Island, or Gardner Island as Earhart would have known it in 1937.

Gillespie has led numerous expeditions to Nikumaroro, and found an abandoned camp there, complete with records that a Caucasian woman's skeleton had been removed from there in the 1940s. The skeleton was taken to Tahiti and since disappeared.

On one of his last expeditions, he brought a forensic-DNA expert to collect samples in the hopes of finding DNA at the camp. They observed ALL the protocols....

..... cut to the chase....

..... back in the States, Gillespie got a call from the lab asking him to come over. Racing over there, they said they had a surprise for him. They'd found his own DNA, plus other DNA unidentifiable and nothing from Earhart.

His own DNA!? The reason why I am searching for it is because the technician went through Forensic-DNA 101 as to how Mr Gillespie's own DNA could be found in what was otherwise a collection which satisfied all the protocols.

Way-back-when, I saw that documentary just as someone like Machiavelli on this very thread was arguing about Sample 165B, that it was up to the defence to prove a route of contamination before the courts should rule-out the bra-clasp as providing anything of interest for this horrid crime.

The technician in the Earhart case had just shrugged her shoulders at Gillespie's frustration, "How'd my DNA contaminate a rigourous forensic-collection." All the technician said was (paraphrase), "contamination happens. In this case there's no point in even trying to pin down how.... unless YOU are Amelia Earhart, I'd suggest - despite your efforts to the contrary - that your collection was useless."
 
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How in the world can anybody be arguing over Amanda Knox when Frank Fuster is still rotting in a Flori-DUH prison for **** which not only never happened, but which would require outright violations of physical laws TO ever happen???
 
How in the world can anybody be arguing over Amanda Knox when Frank Fuster is still rotting in a Flori-DUH prison for **** which not only never happened, but which would require outright violations of physical laws TO ever happen???

This thread should have died a year ago with the exonerations - and don't forget Raffaele Sollecito was exonerated, too.

Why do you think people continue with this thread?
 
a fair point

How in the world can anybody be arguing over Amanda Knox when Frank Fuster is still rotting in a Flori-DUH prison for **** which not only never happened, but which would require outright violations of physical laws TO ever happen???
icebear,

You point is well taken, and I have said much the same thing about the case of Mark Lundy. In all seriousness, start a thread about Frank Fuster here or elsewhere. I still contribute to this thread when I find an interesting forensic tidbit, as I did today. That is one function that it serves.
 
Another Book

Now, this should be interesting.

It looks like a certain Francesco Maresca will have his own book out on Nov 10th, it's titled: "Processo Meredith: giustizia perfetta?".
On the publisher's page for the book there is a link to this 13 pages preview of what seems to be the first chapter titled "Il delitto di Perugia".
The "Prefazione" written by Roberta Bruzzone is not part of the preview.

It surely will be an interesting read.

The following is an excerpt from page 7 of the preview:
John è un personaggio molto particolare; dico personaggio perché le sue caratteristiche di uomo separato, solitario, dedito al bere ne componevano le fattezze in maniera un po’ stereotipata, fino a formare l’immagine del giornalista freelance incazzato col mondo che non rilasciò mai interviste, se non una sola volta al Sunday Times, che onorò la memoria della figlia scrivendo un libro, ma non pubblicizzandolo affatto, confermando le mie impressioni iniziali di un uomo burbero che sarebbe intervenuto poco nel marasma mediatico che si sarebbe creato, e che lasciò quasi immediatamente ai figli il compito di portavoce della famiglia.
which google translates as:
John is a very special character; I say character because its characteristics separate man, solitary, addicted to drink or composing his features in a somewhat 'stereotyped, to form the image of a freelance journalist pissed off with the world that never gave interviews, if not once a Sunday Times, which honored the memory of his daughter writing a book, but not advertising it at all, confirming my initial impressions of a grumpy man who would have intervened recently in the media chaos that would be created, and which he left almost immediately to the children the task of spokesman of the family.
:jaw-dropp
The following from page 8 of the preview
Un padre infastidito dal pantano burocratico in cui ci si stava invischiando, con una situazione personale tutt’altro che rosea, e due ragazzi che, sebbene più lucidi di lui, dovevano andare avanti con le proprie vite: questi gli uomini della famiglia Kercher che, in modo diverso, presero il controllo della situazione, ma che lasciarono poi alle donne il compito di tenersi in contatto sia con lo studio, sempre disponibile a continui aggiornamenti sugli sviluppi delle indagini, sia con la stampa per esprimere il loro pensiero, seppur con la pacatezza che ha da sempre contraddistinto la famiglia.
I comportamenti e l’attitudine psicologica di tutti i Kercher possono essere riassunti nel loro status di famiglia della middle-low class inglese; culturalmente i loro sentimenti erano frenati, sembravano quasi distaccati; la partecipazione al processo è stata sicuramente forte ma pian piano si è sopita. Avrebbero solo desiderato dimenticare tutto il prima possibile, ma purtroppo la ferita del loro animo si è riaperta tutte le volte che li abbiamo dovuti convocare; lo abbiamo sempre fatto con la massima discrezione e solo nelle occasioni in cui la loro presenza era strettamente necessaria, perché talvolta non desideravano affatto venire in Italia per partecipare alle udienze. Tutti i loro spostamenti sono stati organizzati in concerto con la Console Mrs Moira Mc Pharlen, con la collaborazione di Pierluigi Puglia, capo dell’ufficio stampa dell’Ambasciata, che si sarebbe rivelato fondamentale per organizzare le dichiarazioni dei Kercher e definirne il tenore durante le conferenze stampa che vennero indette al termine di ogni grado del processo.
Google translation:
A father annoyed bureaucratic quagmire in which there was clogs, with a personal situation far from rosy, and two boys, although more lucid than he had to go on with their lives: these men of the Kercher family, differently, they took control of the situation, but then left to women the task is to keep in touch with the studio, always available to continuous updates on the developments of the investigation, both with the press to express their thoughts, albeit with calmness that has always characterized the family.
The behavior and the psychological attitude of all Kercher can be summarized in their family status of middle-low class English; culturally their feelings were slowed, they seemed almost detached; participation in the process was certainly strong but gradually it is dormant. They just wanted to forget everything as soon as possible, but unfortunately the injury of their soul has reopened all the times we had to call them; we have always done with the utmost discretion and only on occasions when their presence was absolutely necessary, because sometimes no desire to come to Italy to take part in hearings. All their movements were organized in concert with the Consul Mrs Moira Mc Pharlen, with the collaboration of Pierluigi Puglia, Press Chief of the Embassy, ​​which would be crucial revealed to organize statements of Kercher and define its content during the press conferences that were held at the end of every level of the process.
and this one from page 9
I genitori e la sorella Stephanie erano presenti anche la notte tra il 4 e il 5 dicembre 2010, in cui vennero condannati i due imputati Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito. Dopo quella data i rapporti con la famiglia si allentarono.
Un’occasione in cui, però, la loro presenza fu indispensabile, come rappresentanti della famiglia della vittima, fu il 15 dicembre 2011 per il processo d’Appello che sentenziò l’innocenza degli imputati.
Li incontrai inoltre nell’estate 2012 a Londra quasi disinteressati perché ormai disillusi rispetto alla giustizia italiana. Quest’ultimo atteggiamento si concretizzò nell’assenza della famiglia Kercher alla sentenza della Corte di Cassazione datata 25 marzo 2013 che annullava l’assoluzione.
Con un volo ideale lungo la linea cronologica degli eventi, atto
a tratteggiare le caratteristiche della famiglia Kercher, siamo giunti al 30 gennaio 2014, per la lettura della sentenza del nuovo Appello davanti alla Corte di Firenze che dichiarava nuovamente la colpevolezza degli imputati.
Questa volta la famiglia era presente, con Stephanie e Lyle più disponibili alle interviste, liberati dal giogo dello scetticismo paterno. Tutto lasciava presagire la conferma della condanna di primo grado di Perugia e le nostre sensazioni si rivelarono giuste ancora una volta.
Considerando i Kercher nelle loro peculiarità e differenze come fossero le tessere di un mosaico, ne ricaviamo una visione d’insieme che ben giustifica i loro comportamenti che sono rimasti coerenti in tutti questi anni. Uno fra tutti l’istituzione tardiva della fondazione “True Justice for Meredith Kercher” da parte dei fratelli.
Google translation:
Parents and sister Stephanie were also present on the night of 4 and 5 December 2010, in which the two defendants were convicted Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. After that date reports with the family loosened.
An occasion in which, however, their presence was essential, as representatives of the family of the victim, was 15 December 2011 for the appeal process which declared the innocence of the accused.
Li also met in summer 2012 in London almost disinterested because now disillusioned than the Italian justice.
The latter approach was embodied in the absence of the Kercher family to the Supreme Court judgment dated 25 March 2013 which annulled the acquittal.
With an ideal flight along the timeline of events, designed to outline the characteristics of the Kercher family, we have come to 30 January 2014, for the reading of the new Appeals ruling before the Court of Florence again declared the guilt of the accused.
This time the family was present, with Stephanie and Lyle longer available to interviews, freed from the yoke of his paternal skepticism. Everything presaged the confirmation of the conviction of first degree of Perugia and our feelings proved right once again.
Considering the Kercher in their peculiarities and differences as if they were pieces of a mosaic, we gain a vision that well justifies their behavior that have remained consistent over the years. One of these is the late establishment of the foundation "True Justice for Meredith Kercher" by the brothers.
are interesting when it comes to Mr Kercher's book Meredith... (and other things ;) )
 
Two things stood out to me:

1. That John K is "addicted to drink". Is Maresca saying John K is an alcoholic?

2 "One of these is the late establishment of the foundation "True Justice for Meredith Kercher" by the brothers." So John Jr and Lyle started TJMK?
 
Two things stood out to me:

1. That John K is "addicted to drink". Is Maresca saying John K is an alcoholic?

2 "One of these is the late establishment of the foundation "True Justice for Meredith Kercher" by the brothers." So John Jr and Lyle started TJMK?

Holy cow. Wow.

Maresca is throwing the Kerchers to the wolves? Am I reading this right?
 
Two things stood out to me:

1. That John K is "addicted to drink". Is Maresca saying John K is an alcoholic?

2 "One of these is the late establishment of the foundation "True Justice for Meredith Kercher" by the brothers." So John Jr and Lyle started TJMK?

On #1: Not much room to misinterpret, the question is, why Mr Maresca thinks this backstabbing of his client is necessary? I hope the book will tell...

On #2: I think Mr Maresca gets TJMK and the by now long defunct Meredith Kercher Fund mixed up, just like he gets the date of the Hellmann acquittal wrong, IIRC Dec 15th, 2011 was the date the so called Hellmann-Zanetti Report was published.

Isn't it interesting that main players like him are allowed to get those little things wrong, when being wrong on those little things allegedly was what made Knox and Sollecito suspects in the first place... hmmm...
 
On #1: Not much room to misinterpret, the question is, why Mr Maresca thinks this backstabbing of his client is necessary? I hope the book will tell...

On #2: I think Mr Maresca gets TJMK and the by now long defunct Meredith Kercher Fund mixed up, just like he gets the date of the Hellmann acquittal wrong, IIRC Dec 15th, 2011 was the date the so called Hellmann-Zanetti Report was published.

Isn't it interesting that main players like him are allowed to get those little things wrong, when being wrong on those little things allegedly was what made Knox and Sollecito suspects in the first place... hmmm...
The nightmare just continues for the Kerchers.
 
On #1: Not much room to misinterpret, the question is, why Mr Maresca thinks this backstabbing of his client is necessary? I hope the book will tell...

On #2: I think Mr Maresca gets TJMK and the by now long defunct Meredith Kercher Fund mixed up, just like he gets the date of the Hellmann acquittal wrong, IIRC Dec 15th, 2011 was the date the so called Hellmann-Zanetti Report was published.

Isn't it interesting that main players like him are allowed to get those little things wrong, when being wrong on those little things allegedly was what made Knox and Sollecito suspects in the first place... hmmm...

1. If Maresca accepted the case on the basis that he would receive compensation only if the Kerchers won their civil action and were awarded compensation for damages, it may be that he has written a "tell all" to achieve some gain for the time he spent on the case. Maresca may, perhaps, sensationalize his account in an attempt to maximize book sales.

2. It's only suspects in an interrogation who must get all the details right. Everyone else gets an allowance for mistakes or failures of memory. In some cases, it may be difficult to be sure which of Maresca's statements are erroneous without additional information to show that they are invalid. For example, if the "Meredith Kercher Fund" was set up as a legally registered charity in the UK or in the US (for income tax exemption), I suspect there would be official documentation identifying its sponsors.
 
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1. If Maresca accepted the case on the basis that he would receive compensation only if the Kerchers won their civil action and were awarded compensation for damages, it may be that he has written a "tell all" to achieve some gain for the time he spent on the case. Maresca may, perhaps, sensationalize his account in an attempt to maximize book sales.

2. It's only suspects in an interrogation who must get all the details right. Everyone else gets an allowance for mistakes or failures of memory. In some cases, it may be difficult to be sure which of Maresca's statements are erroneous without additional information to show that they are invalid. For example, if the "Meredith Kercher Fund" was set up as a legally registered charity in the UK or in the US (for income tax exemption), I suspect there would be official documentation identifying its sponsors.

To gain some insight into Maresca's views, here is the concluding statement from page 38 of the preview made available by the publisher (Google translation):

The day after the meeting with the family I went to talk to first time with the prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, [a] person of great culture, moral fiber and goodness.
 
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I'll be interested to hear Maresca's point of view.

The topic of books has reminded me that I never read what happened with the charges of diffamazione against Sollecito and Gumbel connected with the contents of "Honor Bound." Wasn't there supposed to be a trial in May 2016?

Sorry if this has been mentioned, and I missed it.
 
I'll be interested to hear Maresca's point of view.

The topic of books has reminded me that I never read what happened with the charges of diffamazione against Sollecito and Gumbel connected with the contents of "Honor Bound." Wasn't there supposed to be a trial in May 2016?

Sorry if this has been mentioned, and I missed it.
The whole host of parasitical prosecution's by Mignini and others seem to have dropped off the edge of the earth.

And why not. Mignini is thoroughly discredited by the documentary - discredited by his own words.

Why go public with the rest......
 
The whole host of parasitical prosecution's by Mignini and others seem to have dropped off the edge of the earth.

And why not. Mignini is thoroughly discredited by the documentary - discredited by his own words.

Why go public with the rest......

Thank you. I did read in January that Amanda had been acquitted of slander charges against the Perugia police. Then I think I read here that the term of limitations had run out on the lawsuit slapped on her parents for talking about the same police abuses that Amanda described.

If the slander charges against Sollecito and Gumbel have been allowed to quietly fade away, that's ok I guess, but I would have preferred to see all parties accused of slander by the Perugia police win their cases in court, like Amanda did.
 
Thank you. I did read in January that Amanda had been acquitted of slander charges against the Perugia police. Then I think I read here that the term of limitations had run out on the lawsuit slapped on her parents for talking about the same police abuses that Amanda described.

If the slander charges against Sollecito and Gumbel have been allowed to quietly fade away, that's ok I guess, but I would have preferred to see all parties accused of slander by the Perugia police win their cases in court, like Amanda did.

Aside from making Italian lawyers richer.....

It would have been nice to make all the Perugian PLE subject to cross-examination. Even though she was "from away", Patrizia Stefanoni showed her true colours under cross-examination.

Now that the legal landscape has changed with exonerations in March 2015, the risk of calumny is less in cross-examination.
 
On #1: Not much room to misinterpret, the question is, why Mr Maresca thinks this backstabbing of his client is necessary? I hope the book will tell...

So Maresca says that his client was/is a booze hound? LOL.

I wonder if he is trying to lay the foundation for why the Kerchers seemed to be so clueless, i.e., it wasn't that Maresca failed to do his job to keep the Kerchers informed and counsel them, but rather, the captain was drunk at the wheel.

How would Maresca even know that the guy was a drunk? It's not like Maresca was hanging out with him at some pub in London.
 
just curious

By discussing his clients in this manner, would Maresca have violated an ethics rule if this had happened in the United States?
 
Yeah, if I was looking for a lawyer, would I want to go to the guy who writes a book about his highest profile clients?
 
So Maresca says that his client was/is a booze hound? LOL.

I wonder if he is trying to lay the foundation for why the Kerchers seemed to be so clueless, i.e., it wasn't that Maresca failed to do his job to keep the Kerchers informed and counsel them, but rather, the captain was drunk at the wheel.

How would Maresca even know that the guy was a drunk? It's not like Maresca was hanging out with him at some pub in London.

Of course, Maresca presents no evidence to support his statements about John Kercher or other Kercher family members. So a skeptic should be wary of taking them as necessarily true. Maresca, as pointed out by Methos in posts up-thread, makes several clearly untrue statements - for example, claiming there was a public campaign in this case by the US Secretary of State.

I believe Maresca is explaining, in his own fashion, why the Kerchers were relatively uninvolved in the case. The following excerpts are Google translations (with my assistance in [ ]) from the first chapter, page 34:

The behavior and the psychological attitude of all [the] Kercher can be summarized in their family status of middle-low class [lower-middle class?] English; culturally their feelings were dampened, they seemed almost detached; participation in the process was definitely strong but slowly it [became] dormant. They only want[ed] [to] forget everything as soon as possible, but unfortunately the injury of their mood has reopened all the times we had to call them; [this] we have always done with the utmost discretion and only [on] occasions when their presence was absolutely necessary, because sometimes [they had] no desire to come to Italy to participate in hearings.


It may be significant that "family status of middle-low class English" is given in the Italian text partly in English: famiglia della middle-low class inglese. I am unsure whether Maresca is trying to say that the family is from the middle range of the lower class English, or, perhaps more likely, from the lower range of the middle class English. I don't think he is trying to say that the family was "low class" in the sense of having "undesirable" or "low quality" values. However, there seems to be no rationale in the text providing a clear explanation. In the US, I believe a professional journalist and his family would be considered to be in the middle class - although, of course, in the US, everyone not poor or very wealthy is typically considered to be in the middle class.
 
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Of course, Maresca presents no evidence to support his statements about John Kercher or other Kercher family members. So a skeptic should be wary of taking them as necessarily true. Maresca, as pointed out by Methos in posts up-thread, makes several clearly untrue statements - for example, claiming there was a public campaign in this case by the US Secretary of State.

I believe Maresca is explaining, in his own fashion, why the Kerchers were relatively uninvolved in the case. The following excerpts are Google translations (with my assistance in [ ]) from the first chapter, page 34:



It may be significant that "family status of middle-low class English" is given in the Italian text partly in English: famiglia della middle-low class inglese. I am unsure whether Maresca is trying to say that the family is from the middle range of the lower class English, or, perhaps more likely, from the lower range of the middle class English. I don't think he is trying to say that the family was "low class" in the sense of having "undesirable" or "low quality" values. However, there seems to be no rationale in the text providing a clear explanation. In the US, I believe a professional journalist and his family would be considered to be in the middle class - although, of course, in the US, everyone not poor or very wealthy is typically considered to be in the middle class.


My own strong suspicion is that this is all about Maresca "explaining" how he had a brilliant legal stratagem underpinned by his brilliant legal mind, which would have resulted in a successful outcome had it not been for the malign and disruptive influence of his clients, the Kercher family.

I think that Maresca's reference to the Kerchers as "lower-middle-class" (and I think that's his meaning) is simply a proxy for what he'd like to say - which is that (in his opinion) the Kerchers lacked sufficient intellect and education to enable him to do his job properly in this case. The same rationale goes, IMO, for his coded reference to JK's alleged alcohol dependence problem, and for the internecine and intra-familial disputes among the Kerchers (which do have supporting evidence - for example, I think it's true that for some time now, Stephanie Kercher has been operating more-or-less separately from many other members of the family wrt this case).

In other words, IMO Maresca is effectively accusing the Kerchers of having got in his way - through their uninformed, ignorant and ill-educated meddling, their dysfunctional family structure, their character defects and their in-fighting - and thus hampered his ability to act properly on their behalf and on behalf of Meredith Kercher. The flip-side inference (of Maresca's) would be that if the Kerchers had been decent, intelligent, well-informed, well-educated, united, thoughtful, deferential (to him) and unafflicted by substance abuse issues, he (Maresca) might/would have been able to deliver "justice for Meredith"..........
 
My own strong suspicion is that this is all about Maresca "explaining" how he had a brilliant legal stratagem underpinned by his brilliant legal mind, which would have resulted in a successful outcome had it not been for the malign and disruptive influence of his clients, the Kercher family.

It sure looks that way so far. Then again we need to wait.....

But here's the deal..... why is Maresca not being disbarred for this? Once again the Kerchers are victimized.
 
may be significant that "family status of middle-low class English" is given in the Italian text partly in English: famiglia della middle-low class inglese. I am unsure whether Maresca is trying to say that the family is from the middle range of the lower class English, or, perhaps more likely, from the lower range of the middle class English. I don't think he is trying to say that the family was "low class" in the sense of having "undesirable" or "low quality" values. However, there seems to be no rationale in the text providing a clear explanation. In the US, I believe a professional journalist and his family would be considered to be in the middle class - although, of course, in the US, everyone not poor or very wealthy is typically considered to be in the middle class.

He's being a horrible snob. It's true that the Kerchers' speech reflects their lower-middle class status. The women especially have the slow, drawl-y, over-enunciated speech and peculiar vowel sounds of lower-middle class South Londoners striving to sound "well spoken." It's not a particularly attractive accent. But without making a RADA-level effort to transform that South London accent into RP, there's no disguising their class whenever they speak.

That said, a person's class origin has no bearing upon his or her intellect or potential.
 
He's being a horrible snob. It's true that the Kerchers' speech reflects their lower-middle class status. The women especially have the slow, drawl-y, over-enunciated speech and peculiar vowel sounds of lower-middle class South Londoners striving to sound "well spoken." It's not a particularly attractive accent. But without making a RADA-level effort to transform that South London accent into RP, there's no disguising their class whenever they speak.

That said, a person's class origin has no bearing upon his or her intellect or potential.


What are you on about? Meredith Kercher was an ex-public school girl. Fees £12K pa (multiply that by four children). More expensive than any school your heroine went to. And as for the accent, that's RICH, considering Deanna's nasal twangs and frightful tortuous vowels when she did her speech outside Hellmann.

http://www.oldpalace.croydon.sch.uk/fees
 
He's being a horrible snob. It's true that the Kerchers' speech reflects their lower-middle class status. The women especially have the slow, drawl-y, over-enunciated speech and peculiar vowel sounds of lower-middle class South Londoners striving to sound "well spoken." It's not a particularly attractive accent. But without making a RADA-level effort to transform that South London accent into RP, there's no disguising their class whenever they speak.

That said, a person's class origin has no bearing upon his or her intellect or potential.


I completely agree with your assessment of the Kerchers' speech and accent characteristics. But I actually think a native Italian with little immersion in the finest nuances of British accents (e.g. Maresca) would almost certainly not be able to detect those nuances in the Kerchers. Rather, I very much suspect that Maresca's (pejorative and snobby) dismissal of the Kerchers as "lower-middle-class" was based on the way they acted in front of him, and the way in which (perhaps) they were unable to grasp some of the more intellectually-challenging aspects of the case and of Maresca's trial strategy.

I strongly suspect Maresca also knew things such as what kind of houses/neighbourhoods the Kerchers lived in, and what levels they'd attained in education and employment. Obviously he would also almost certainly have known about how much disposable income they did/didn't have, and what levels of capital assets they had. All of those indicators would have informed his view of the Kerchers' demographic classification. As it happens, he's probably pretty accurate. As you say, their accents are a distinct pointer to anyone who is sufficiently attuned to British accents and vocal cadences. And the (for want of a better term) patriarch, John Kercher Sr, was a freelance jobbing hack (certainly not editorial-level journalism, nor anywhere near).

And, as I said, my view is that Maresca was frustrated by the Kerchers to some extent, and he chose to take out his frustration on snobbish character assassinations based on his assessment of the Kerchers' social class. In addition, I think it's entirely possible that any genuine frustration/obstruction Maresca might have felt in reality has been significantly magnified for the purposes of this book. After all, Maresca has a reputation to protect, and a fee-paying existence to preserve. And therefore it's easy to see how a narrative along the lines of "I'd have won this case if it hadn't been for the pesky, bickering, class-deficient clients I was lumbered with" is meant to convey the following implied message: "I, Maresca, am a brilliant lawyer. You cannot pin the blame for my failure in the Kercher case on my lack of skill and talent - the blame in this instance lies with the client. So you, my well-educated and erudite legal friends and potential future clients, should continue to have total faith in my abilities and chances of success."

In other words, the Kerchers might not have been ideal clients for someone such as Maresca - but there's a logical reason why a rat such as Maresca might choose to magnify the Kerchers' shortcomings and adverse influence, in order to pin all the blame for his failure upon them, in order in turn to try to protect his personal reputation and future earnings.
 
What are you on about? Meredith Kercher was an ex-public school girl. Fees £12K pa (multiply that by four children). More expensive than any school your heroine went to. And as for the accent, that's RICH, considering Deanna's nasal twangs and frightful tortuous vowels when she did her speech outside Hellmann.

http://www.oldpalace.croydon.sch.uk/fees


Didn't Meredith Kercher win an assisted scholarship to that school?

And anyhow, you really ought to be taking the matter up with Maresca. He's the one who (apparently) made the assessment of the Kerchers as "lower-middle-class" in the first place. Why do you think he assessed the Kerchers in this way (and/or felt the need to assess the Kerchers in this way), Vixen?
 
Didn't Meredith Kercher win an assisted scholarship to that school?

And anyhow, you really ought to be taking the matter up with Maresca. He's the one who (apparently) made the assessment of the Kerchers as "lower-middle-class" in the first place. Why do you think he assessed the Kerchers in this way (and/or felt the need to assess the Kerchers in this way), Vixen?

Wow, the Friends of Amanda Knox are bitchy today. Maresca no doubt was trying to convey the Kerchers are ordinary people. Compared to the panhandlers and crooks on the other side.
 
What are you on about? Meredith Kercher was an ex-public school girl. Fees £12K pa (multiply that by four children). More expensive than any school your heroine went to. And as for the accent, that's RICH, considering Deanna's nasal twangs and frightful tortuous vowels when she did her speech outside Hellmann.

http://www.oldpalace.croydon.sch.uk/fees

Do you agree with the assessment that Francesco Maresca seems to be making about his former clients?

Please also stop with the "your heroine" crap.
 
I completely agree with your assessment of the Kerchers' speech and accent characteristics. But I actually think a native Italian with little immersion in the finest nuances of British accents (e.g. Maresca) would almost certainly not be able to detect those nuances in the Kerchers. Rather, I very much suspect that Maresca's (pejorative and snobby) dismissal of the Kerchers as "lower-middle-class" was based on the way they acted in front of him, and the way in which (perhaps) they were unable to grasp some of the more intellectually-challenging aspects of the case and of Maresca's trial strategy.

I strongly suspect Maresca also knew things such as what kind of houses/neighbourhoods the Kerchers lived in, and what levels they'd attained in education and employment. Obviously he would also almost certainly have known about how much disposable income they did/didn't have, and what levels of capital assets they had. All of those indicators would have informed his view of the Kerchers' demographic classification. As it happens, he's probably pretty accurate. As you say, their accents are a distinct pointer to anyone who is sufficiently attuned to British accents and vocal cadences. And the (for want of a better term) patriarch, John Kercher Sr, was a freelance jobbing hack (certainly not editorial-level journalism, nor anywhere near).

And, as I said, my view is that Maresca was frustrated by the Kerchers to some extent, and he chose to take out his frustration on snobbish character assassinations based on his assessment of the Kerchers' social class. In addition, I think it's entirely possible that any genuine frustration/obstruction Maresca might have felt in reality has been significantly magnified for the purposes of this book. After all, Maresca has a reputation to protect, and a fee-paying existence to preserve. And therefore it's easy to see how a narrative along the lines of "I'd have won this case if it hadn't been for the pesky, bickering, class-deficient clients I was lumbered with" is meant to convey the following implied message: "I, Maresca, am a brilliant lawyer. You cannot pin the blame for my failure in the Kercher case on my lack of skill and talent - the blame in this instance lies with the client. So you, my well-educated and erudite legal friends and potential future clients, should continue to have total faith in my abilities and chances of success."

In other words, the Kerchers might not have been ideal clients for someone such as Maresca - but there's a logical reason why a rat such as Maresca might choose to magnify the Kerchers' shortcomings and adverse influence, in order to pin all the blame for his failure upon them, in order in turn to try to protect his personal reputation and future earnings.


How dare you call John Kercher, 'a jobbing hack'?

https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/120782499453485056
 
Do you agree with the assessment that Francesco Maresca seems to be making about his former clients?

Please also stop with the "your heroine" crap.

All I have seen so far is the spin that's been put on it based on p!sspoor google translations. I doubt very much Maresca called John a wino or that he thinks they are low class. On the contrary, the Kerchers' behaviour has always been classy and dignified. Something that only comes with innate good breeding.
 
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So Maresca says that his client was/is a booze hound? LOL.

I wonder if he is trying to lay the foundation for why the Kerchers seemed to be so clueless, i.e., it wasn't that Maresca failed to do his job to keep the Kerchers informed and counsel them, but rather, the captain was drunk at the wheel.

How would Maresca even know that the guy was a drunk? It's not like Maresca was hanging out with him at some pub in London.

Assuming your question is a genuine one. Serious alcoholics typically reek at all times of mouthwash only barely covering up the smell of alcohol that seems to exude from their pores.
 
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